Does Continuation Apply?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Everyone who has taken the position that W4, in the original video, was not fouled in the act of shooting, has yet to make a ruling for any of the two (actually eight plays within two scenarios) plays that I have posted, are "in the act of shooting" fouls. The fouls in those the plays I have posted require the application of the same rules that I quoted in my first post in the thread with regard to the foul in the video.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

you are right that everyone but you and one other person believe w4 wasn't fouled in act of shooting. And you're right, we haven't read your 8 plays because it isn't necessary. Again, this isn't close.

[deecee]

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich:



It is footwork after the dribble as ended that matters. That is the essence of the continuous motion rule. Review that other plays that I have posted and give me your rulings and why?



MTD, Sr.

tl;dr

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Mark,

you are right that everyone but you and one other person believe w4 wasn't fouled in act of shooting. And you're right, we haven't read your 8 plays because it isn't necessary. Again, this isn't close.

Big Cat:

My experience as a rules interpreter and instructor tells me that when you tell me that you don't think it is necessary to study similar plays that you do not want to learn. Humor me, and study them, and tell the forum your rulings because I am very interested in your analysis.

MTD, Sr.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by rich

tl;dr

ikr?

[BigCat]

[QUOTE=Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.;998358]I should be taking my post-lunch nap right now in preparation for the girls' JrHS basketball DH I am not supposed to be officiating this afternoon, but I promised that I would get back with some plays. Big Cat I would hope that you will take a real good look at them and give me your rulings.

I should also like to address the poster who referred to my initial post as a "disertation". Yes, it seemed long, but my comments were meant to show that even a simple play as the one in the video we are discussing can and does have many rules that must be applied simultaneously. I am a (retired) structural engineer and was a rules interpreter for ten years (as well as an OhioHSAA Certified Basketball Officiating Instructor) and sat on two IAABO National Committees for instruction and exams and that attention to detail is just how I do things.


Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed
center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 either: 1)
receives a pass from A2 and in one continuous motion picks up his left foot
and starts to step across the lane jumping off his right foot then landing on his
left foot and then jumps off his left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball
on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on
it way through the basket; or 2) after stopping his dribble and in one
continuous motion picks up in left foot and starts to step across the lane
jumping off his right foot then landing on his left foot and then jumps off of his
left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on it way through the basket. In both Play A-1 and Play A-2, A1 is fouled by B1 after he has starts to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the sky hook in (b). What it your Ruling?


I'll humor you.

You say he was fouled By B1 after he starts to step with left foot but before he releases ball on sky hook or pass. There's a gap there. If he fouls just after he began the step, arms doing nothing then no shot. If he completes the step, arms start going up,(or started going up before that) then i need to decide shot or pass. i will look at him and the play and decide if he was going to shoot it or dump it. There is a decision there. may error on side of shot. have to see it.

In this other play, w4 has to come down out of the air when she is fouled. She can then stand still, shoot or pass it. She was fouled while going down. It is too far back in time to say that is in the act. The throwing motion has never started.

finally, theres a certain amount of pornography involved here. Habitually precedes release…requires some "i know it when i see it" stuff. This girl is in no way shooting when she's fouled.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Big Cat:

My experience as a rules interpreter and instructor tells me that when you tell me that you don't think it is necessary to study similar plays that you do not want to learn. Humor me, and study them, and tell the forum your rulings because I am very interested in your analysis.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,
My experience tells me that you are ignoring the way the game has been played for years and taking a basic play…not in the act of shooting, and trying to plug it into rules and reaching an absurd result. This isn't a close play.

Old dogs can't learn new tricks. I can learn but i can't learn anything from what you are espousing on this thread.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Deecee,

you always make me chuckle. thank you

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A jumpstop is not part of the habitual throwing movement. That should be clear to everyone, despite what MTD says.

Let me point out that the continuous motion rule states that the throwing motion must have started BEFORE the time of the foul for any stepping or arm movement to be permitted.

and:



ART. 2 . . . If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to
complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the
usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted
only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in
flight.

In the play, (and in some of Mark's 8 plays, perhaps -- it was hard to follow) the girls was not pivoting or stepping WHEN FOULED.

[MD Longhorn]

Question for Mark.

In the OP, after the player jumps, is fouled, and lands ... that player can (had they not been fouled) immediately jump and shoot ... or they could conceivably wait a second or two, fake, and then shoot (and/or pass). Given your explanation that the entire motion, beginning before the foul, is "the act of shooting" ... if the player were to jump, get fouled, land, wait 2 seconds, and then shoot ... in your opinion, would this still be in the act of shooting?

What if said player went up, got fouled, landed ... and then heard the whistle and didn't do anything at all --- still in the act of shooting?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Question for Mark.

In the OP, after the player jumps, is fouled, and lands ... that player can (had they not been fouled) immediately jump and shoot ... or they could conceivably wait a second or two, fake, and then shoot (and/or pass). Given your explanation that the entire motion, beginning before the foul, is "the act of shooting" ... if the player were to jump, get fouled, land, wait 2 seconds, and then shoot ... in your opinion, would this still be in the act of shooting?

What if said player went up, got fouled, landed ... and then heard the whistle and didn't do anything at all --- still in the act of shooting?

YES DAMNIT. He's made his point very clearly. Put the kid on the line and shoot 2, or 3 if he's behind the arc.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Question for Mark.

In the OP, after the player jumps, is fouled, and lands ... that player can (had they not been fouled) immediately jump and shoot ... or they could conceivably wait a second or two, fake, and then shoot (and/or pass). Given your explanation that the entire motion, beginning before the foul, is "the act of shooting" ... if the player were to jump, get fouled, land, wait 2 seconds, and then shoot ... in your opinion, would this still be in the act of shooting?

What if said player went up, got fouled, landed ... and then heard the whistle and didn't do anything at all --- still in the act of shooting?

Originally Posted by deecee

YES DAMNIT. He's made his point very clearly. Put the kid on the line and shoot 2, or 3 if he's behind the arc.

Absolutely NOT!! That is not continuous motion. I am appalled at how few people do not understand the essence of the Continuous Motion Rule.

It is to damn late for me to get into it tonight.

Good night all!

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Bob and Big Cat:

I made the Plays easier for you to follow:

Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 receives a pass from A2, and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 after he has started to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play B: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is dribbling the ball while set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 stops his dribble and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after he has started to step with his left foot but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play C: A1 catches a pass from A2 while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has caught A2's pass and but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?


Play D: A1 is dribbling the ball and ends her dribble while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball for her: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has ended her dribble but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?


I started officiating in 1971 and graduated from H.S. in 1969 (and played on two league and sectional championship teams; my H.S. coach was a founding member in 1948 of the LOA in Warren, Ohio, of which I am still a member), and the Continuous Motion Rule and how it is applied has not changed in well over 50 years; my personal collection of NFHS and NCAA rules start in 1971 but I have one NFHS/NCAA Rules Book from 1963, so that is how I know the CMR has not changed in over 50 years.

The CMR was written as such to insure that the shooter was not penalized and the defender rewarded for committing a foul. The authors of the CMR understood that a player that is dribbling the ball cannot shoot the ball and that only after the offensive player has ended his/her dribble can he/she begin his/her try.

The 8 plays that I have provided in this post show how the rules tell us that there are many times when the start of the try is well before the actual release of the ball. The rules do this by not defining what is the "habitual throwing motion", what is "when the habitual throwing motion has started", and what is the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball". See NFHS R4-S11-A1 and A2, and NFHS R4-S41-A3.

The rules further define what legal footwork a player make take after he/she ends her dribble. This legal footwork, when done in one continuous movement (or motion) can be considerable between the time of the end of the dribble and the release of the ball on a try. What the rules do not define (or limit for that matter) is how much or how little of that legal footwork can be taken between the time the player ends his/her dribble and releasing the ball for a try. In other words, the authors of the CMR understood that a try for goal was more complex than simply releasing the ball from the shooter's hand.

CMR allows the offensive player to complete any and all legal footwork needed to release the ball for a try. The CMR prevents any foul by the defense during that period between the ending the dribble and prior to the release for a try from negating the try. To allow the try to be negated would give the defense an advantage and the offensive a disadvantage the CMR prevents.

With what I have said in mind, study Plays A2, B2, C2, and D2, and how negating A1's try rewards B1 for fouling and penalizes A1 for being fouled, and how allowing B1 to gain such an advantage is not allowed by the CMR and therefore, the same principle applies to the play in the video.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Are we still discussing fouls which occur during a jump-stop? Too many paragraphs above for me to keep up.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob and Big Cat:

I made the Plays easier for you to follow:

Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 receives a pass from A2, and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 after he has started to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play B: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is dribbling the ball while set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 stops his dribble and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after he has started to step with his left foot but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play C: A1 catches a pass from A2 while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has caught A2's pass and but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?


Play D: A1 is dribbling the ball and ends her dribble while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball for her: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has ended her dribble but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?


I started officiating in 1971 and graduated from H.S. in 1969 (and played on two league and sectional championship teams; my H.S. coach was a founding member in 1948 of the LOA in Warren, Ohio, of which I am still a member), and the Continuous Motion Rule and how it is applied has not changed in well over 50 years; my personal collection of NFHS and NCAA rules start in 1971 but I have one NFHS/NCAA Rules Book from 1963, so that is how I know the CMR has not changed in over 50 years.

The CMR was written as such to insure that the shooter was not penalized and the defender rewarded for committing a foul. The authors of the CMR understood that a player that is dribbling the ball cannot shoot the ball and that only after the offensive player has ended his/her dribble can he/she begin his/her try.

The 8 plays that I have provided in this post show how the rules tell us that there are many times when the start of the try is well before the actual release of the ball. The rules do this by not defining what is the "habitual throwing motion", what is "when the habitual throwing motion has started", and what is the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball". See NFHS R4-S11-A1 and A2, and NFHS R4-S41-A3.

The rules further define what legal footwork a player make take after he/she ends her dribble. This legal footwork, when done in one continuous movement (or motion) can be considerable between the time of the end of the dribble and the release of the ball on a try. What the rules do not define (or limit for that matter) is how much or how little of that legal footwork can be taken between the time the player ends his/her dribble and releasing the ball for a try. In other words, the authors of the CMR understood that a try for goal was more complex than simply releasing the ball from the shooter's hand.

CMR allows the offensive player to complete any and all legal footwork needed to release the ball for a try. The CMR prevents any foul by the defense during that period between the ending the dribble and prior to the release for a try from negating the try. To allow the try to be negated would give the defense an advantage and the offensive a disadvantage the CMR prevents.

With what I have said in mind, study Plays A2, B2, C2, and D2, and how negating A1's try rewards B1 for fouling and penalizes A1 for being fouled, and how allowing B1 to gain such an advantage is not allowed by the CMR and therefore, the same principle applies to the play in the video.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

All the experience you have does not matter when you try to say that W4 in this video is in the act of shooting on the way down from a jump stop. Reading your play A and some of your comments you believe everything following the end of the dribble , every foot movement, is part of the act of shooting. That is just wrong.

In your play A. You say your 7 footer lifts his left foot, hops off of right to left and then jumps and releases ball on a pass to player whomever or shoots it. You say he was fouled after he stepped with left foot and before the release. I will assume you mean he is fouled some time after he first picks up the left foot. Again, as I said in the earlier post. What are his arms doing? Has he begun the throwing motion. I've done/seen this move. Usually, the player is holding the ball at chin level when he begins this move. If he is fouled just after lifting the left foot and has done nothing else, ball OOB. That isnt a throwing motion. He then hops from right foot to left. If he's fouled then, still want to see what arms doing. Likely they are still low but could be moving up. If he is fouled at any time before the throwing motion, they are going to take the ball OOB. If he's fouled after the ball starts rising/throwing motion then I have to see everything and decide if he was shooting or was dumping at time of the foul. If your 7 footer does this fast enough he can make it similar to a conventional layup. Shooting or passing..need to see and make a decision.

You can say the player "in one continuous motion"...did XYZ but that doesnt mean that XY and Z are all a part of the act of shooting. Your play A is closer to being in the act and may even be depending on what it looks like but it isn't the same play as a player on the way down from a jump stop. They are not similar plays.