Does Continuation Apply?

[Da Official]

I'm in the minority with Mark. Continuous motion (NFHS) states .....if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. Shooting, Try, Tap (NFHS) states...The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the the ball.

In my opinion the player ended her dribble, started her 1st step while holding the ball, was then pushed (fouled), completed a legal jump stop and released the ball for a try.

I keep thinking would the view change if the 2nd movement was a step with the right foot (instead of the jump stop) and then the release of the ball? Is the jump stop throwing off the play? To me continuous motion says that shooting motions can start from the floor and the player still has the right to complete the usual movement.

Resource:
Basketball - Continuous Motion - Referee Magazine

" the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is what the player is doing at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Da Official

I'm in the minority with Mark. Continuous motion (NFHS) states .....if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. Shooting, Try, Tap (NFHS) states...The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the the ball.

In my opinion the player ended her dribble, started her 1st step while holding the ball, was then pushed (fouled), completed a legal jump stop and released the ball for a try.

I keep thinking would the view change if the 2nd movement was a step with the right foot (instead of the jump stop) and then the release of the ball? Is the jump stop throwing off the play? To me continuous motion says that shooting motions can start from the floor and the player still has the right to complete the usual movement.

The continuous motion rule requires the "habitual throwing movement" to start first. Then a player is allowed to complete customary foot movement.

Also, you are only looking at the 3 article in the try rule when you say "try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes release of ball." If you look at Art 2 you will see that that language is referring to throwing the ball and not foot movement. Foot movement doesn't count until there's something you can call a throwing motion.

The jump stop begins and ends before the player ever starts the throwing motion. She is actually in the air landing at time of the foul. Everything is going down and nothing up at that moment. End line throw in.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Da Official

I'm in the minority with Mark. Continuous motion (NFHS) states .....if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. Shooting, Try, Tap (NFHS) states...The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the the ball.

In my opinion the player ended her dribble, started her 1st step while holding the ball, was then pushed (fouled), completed a legal jump stop and released the ball for a try.

I keep thinking would the view change if the 2nd movement was a step with the right foot (instead of the jump stop) and then the release of the ball? Is the jump stop throwing off the play? To me continuous motion says that shooting motions can start from the floor and the player still has the right to complete the usual movement.

Resource:
Basketball - Continuous Motion - Referee Magazine

" the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is what the player is doing at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

The amazing thing about the Referee article is what I have said has been the the way the game as been officiated for well over 50 years. What you have said is the essence of the Continuous Motion rule. The rule is written such that a defensive player does not gain an unfair advantage over the offensive player in this situation. I am about to post two plays (actually four plays) for everyone to study.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I should be taking my post-lunch nap right now in preparation for the girls' JrHS basketball DH I am not supposed to be officiating this afternoon, but I promised that I would get back with some plays. Big Cat I would hope that you will take a real good look at them and give me your rulings.

I should also like to address the poster who referred to my initial post as a "disertation". Yes, it seemed long, but my comments were meant to show that even a simple play as the one in the video we are discussing can and does have many rules that must be applied simultaneously. I am a (retired) structural engineer and was a rules interpreter for ten years (as well as an OhioHSAA Certified Basketball Officiating Instructor) and sat on two IAABO National Committees for instruction and exams and that attention to detail is just how I do things.


Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed
center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 either: 1)
receives a pass from A2 and in one continuous motion picks up his left foot
and starts to step across the lane jumping off his right foot then landing on his
left foot and then jumps off his left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball
on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on
it way through the basket; or 2) after stopping his dribble and in one
continuous motion picks up in left foot and starts to step across the lane
jumping off his right foot then landing on his left foot and then jumps off of his
left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on it way through the basket. In both Play A-1 and Play A-2, A1 is fouled by B1 after he has starts to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the sky hook in (b). What it your Ruling?


Play B: A1: 1) catches a pass from A2 while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: a) on a pass to A3, or b)a layup high and soft off of the backboard that goes through the basket; or 2) A1 ends her dribble while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, the jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: a) on a pass to A3, or b) a layup high and soft off of the backboard that goes through the basket. In Play B-1 A1 is fouled by B1 after she has caught the ball and anytime before she releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the layup in (b). In Play B-2 A1 is fouled by B1 after she ends her dribble and anytime before she releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the layup in (b). What it your Ruling?

Do not forget to cite NFHS Rules and Casebook Plays (and would like everyone that NCAA Rules and Approved Rules will be the same as the NFHS Rules and Casebook Plays).

MTD, Sr.

[Gutierrez7]

[QUOTE=xyrph;998045]Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

Interesting observations from prior comments.

Are we applying Rule 4.11.2 correctly:

ART. 2 . . . If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to
complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the
usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted
only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in
flight.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gutierrez7

Are we applying Rule 4.11.2 correctly:

First, a rule uses dashes -- so it's 4-11-2.

Second, some of us are. One person from Ohio (who shouldn't be officiating right now but is, and a select few here know why) is not.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The continuous motion rule requires the "habitual throwing movement" to start first. Then a player is allowed to complete customary foot movement.

Also, you are only looking at the 3 article in the try rule when you say "try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes release of ball." If you look at Art 2 you will see that that language is referring to throwing the ball and not foot movement. Foot movement doesn't count until there's something you can call a throwing motion.

The jump stop begins and ends before the player ever starts the throwing motion. She is actually in the air landing at time of the foul. Everything is going down and nothing up at that moment. End line throw in.

(Sorry this is long)

Big Cat, to me, Section 41 Art 2 is giving us the definition of a try for field goal (an attempt by a player to score...) and continues with what a try for goal looks like (throwing or attempting to throw) and states a caveat that the ball does not actually have to leave the player's hand. I think it’s safe to say we all understand the definition of a try.

To me Section 41 Art 3 goes into more detail as to WHEN the try actually starts (when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball).

Question for all officials:
1. Does Art 3 say that the try starts when the player 'begins the hand motion'? Arm motion? Feet motion? Head motion?

Answer: It does not specify any part of the body. It simply says 'the motion'. Why is that?

I’m not completely sure but I would say there are quite a few plays that involve motion such as steps or pivoting before the release of the ball for a try for field goal. Someone is always taking steps for a layup, floater, finger roll, or last second heave to the goal, etc. Does it matter what the ball is doing during these steps or is it what the player is doing?

Some say the ball needs to be going upward at the point of the foul. WHY??? What does the position of the ball have to do when fouled? What if the player wraps the ball around his/her back while stepping or what if the player holds the ball tightly on the hip while stepping or puts the ball behind his/her head while stepping?

The article says and I agree that "the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is WHAT THE PLAYER IS DOING at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

If we were to apply this logic to our scenario or any other, once the dribble ends and the ball is being held we as officials have to determine is the player passing or shooting (as dribbling was eliminated when the ball was held). Now Big Cat I agree we have to look at Art 2 and Art 3 together because it will help us determine if the player is passing or shooting. We either have an attempt to score or an attempt to pass.

How do we determine which? Art 2 says its "in the official's judgment". For me I let the play start, develop, and finish. The question is answered for me in Rule 4 Section 11 Art 2 when I allow the player to "complete the customary arm movement....or usual foot or body movement". At this point, the foul should not make the ball dead unless the player was dribbling.

If the player attempts a shot, then I rule a try. If the player does not look to shoot and passes, then I rule no try - ball dead. If the player looks to shoot and loses the ball or balance or whatever and then passes, then it gets tricky and is a true judgment scenario as to awarding a try.

In our scenario, the player ended the dribble, took the 1st step, was fouled (while bringing the ball up which really shouldn’t matter), completed a jump stop, and a try for field goal. Award 2 points plus 1 FT.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A jumpstop is not part of the habitual throwing movement. That should be clear to everyone, despite what MTD says.

Let me point out that the continuous motion rule states that the throwing motion must have started BEFORE the time of the foul for any stepping or arm movement to be permitted.

I like this..

[Rich]

4-11-1:

Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

-------------

There is no way that going into a jump stop is after the "habitual throwing motion" has started.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

4-11-1:

Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

-------------

There is no way that going into a jump stop is after the "habitual throwing motion" has started.

Rich:

Before you stand by your most recent statement I would suggest that you review the plays that I posted because legal foot work prior to the release of the shot does matter.

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Da Official

(Sorry is this is long)

Big Cat, to me, Section 41 Art 2 is giving us the definition of a try for field goal (an attempt by a player to score...) and continues with what a try for goal looks like (throwing or attempting to throw) and states a caveat that the ball does not actually have to leave the player's hand. I think it’s safe to say we all understand the definition of a try.

To me Section 41 Art 3 goes into more detail as to WHEN the try actually starts (when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball).

Question for all officials:
1. Does Art 3 say that the try starts when the player 'begins the hand motion'? Arm motion? Feet motion? Head motion?

Answer: It does not specify any part of the body. It simply says 'the motion'. Why is that?

I’m not completely sure but I would say there are quite a few plays that involve motion such as steps or pivoting before the release of the ball for a try for field goal. Someone is always taking steps for a layup, floater, finger roll, or last second heave to the goal, etc. Does it matter what the ball is doing during these steps or is it what the player is doing?

Some say the ball needs to be going upward at the point of the foul. WHY??? What does the position of the ball have to do when fouled? What if the player wraps the ball around his/her back while stepping or what if the player holds the ball tightly on the hip while stepping or puts the ball behind his/her head while stepping?

The article says and I agree that "the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is WHAT THE PLAYER IS DOING at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

If we were to apply this logic to our scenario or any other, once the dribble ends and the ball is being held we as officials have to determine is the player passing or shooting (as dribbling was eliminated when the ball was held). Now Big Cat I agree we have to look at Art 2 and Art 3 together because it will help us determine if the player is passing or shooting. We either have an attempt to score or an attempt to pass.

How do we determine which? Art 2 says its "in the official's judgment". For me I let the play start, develop, and finish. The question is answered for me in Rule 4 Section 11 Art 2 when I allow the player to "complete the customary arm movement....or usual foot or body movement". At this point, the foul should not make the ball dead unless the player was dribbling.

If the player attempts a shot, then I rule a try. If the player does not look to shoot and passes, then I rule no try - ball dead. If the player looks to shoot and loses the ball or balance or whatever and then passes, then it gets tricky and is a true judgment scenario as to awarding a try.

In our scenario, the player ended the dribble, took the 1st step, was fouled (while bringing the ball up which really shouldn’t matter), completed a jump stop, and a try for field goal. Award 2 points plus 1 FT.

Your referee article author is discussing the play when a player ends a dribble and has to shoot or pass. probably a regular layup move. Is it a shot or a pass? That's what his article is about. The player in that motion is headed up, he's jumping. question is shot or pass? That is why he says only things left are "shot or pass."

In this play the player is on her way "down" on a jump stop when she is fouled. The statement that the player is "dribbling, shooting or passing" applies to the author's play. This girl, again, is on the way down. She can land and do nothing if she wants. It is a different play than your article.

The throwing motion has to start before you think about foot movements counting. You are counting foot movements that happen before the throwing motion as starting the try. That just isn't the rule. The question here is how far back in time do you go to say she starts the trying motion? This girl has to land and then decide if she will stay there, pass or shoot. She's not close to being in the act of shooting.

I do look for some upward movement to consider a player in act. i may error on side of the foul being in act if on breakaway layup or certain other circumstances. I would never, in a billion years, call this play fouled in the act of shooting.

[Rich]

It's footwork after the foul and before the release that matters. Landing and jump stopping doesn't fit that criteria.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich:

Before you stand by your most recent statement I would suggest that you review the plays that I posted because legal foot work prior to the release of the shot does matter.

MTD, Sr.

The throwing motion has to start first. Legal footwork may matter to decide if the player travels but it means nothing, absolutely nothing, if the throwing motion hasn't started as to whether you say the foul was in act of shooting.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Everyone who has taken the position that W4, in the original video, was not fouled in the act of shooting, has yet to make a ruling for any of the two (actually eight plays within two scenarios) plays that I have posted, are "in the act of shooting" fouls. The fouls in those the plays I have posted require the application of the same rules that I quoted in my first post in the thread with regard to the foul in the video.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's footwork after the foul and before the release that matters. Landing and jump stopping doesn't fit that criteria.

Rich:

It is footwork after the dribble as ended that matters. That is the essence of the continuous motion rule. Review that other plays that I have posted and give me your rulings and why?

MTD, Sr.