NFHS brawl

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

After reading in the book, I see no difference between the two. In Washington state, however, an ejected player or coach is prohibited from participating in the next contest; a player who is "disqualified" due to 5 fouls, is obviously allowed to play in the next game. I need to get further clarification from our state association. Thanks for the replies.

I don't think you read the NFHS Basketball Rules very well.

Please read very caefully: R4-S14-A1; and the NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6.

MTD, Sr.

[jamesshank]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I don't think you read the NFHS Basketball Rules very well.

Please read very caefully: R4-S14-A1; and the NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6.

MTD, Sr.

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

I learned a long time that if EVERYONE is saying something contrary to what I believe I am probably wrong. 100% of the time this is true. There are differences and DQ's as mentioned above can happen for several reasons.

Your state may simply be using ejected as a term that is most understood when a player/coach gets 2 T's or a Flagrant. Being DQ'd for 5 fouls is NOT the same as being DQ's for 2 T's or a Flagrant. In an ejection the individual is required to leave. We cannot require kids to leave without adult supervision. What the rules state and what states choose to do is up to the individual state and not the NFHS. There is no national policy that a player that receives 2 T's get a 1 game suspension so looking for that in the rule book is an effort in futility.

[jamesshank]

Originally Posted by deecee

I learned a long time that if EVERYONE is saying something contrary to what I believe I am probably wrong. 100% of the time this is true. There are differences and DQ's as mentioned above can happen for several reasons.

Your state may simply be using ejected as a term that is most understood when a player/coach gets 2 T's or a Flagrant. Being DQ'd for 5 fouls is NOT the same as being DQ's for 2 T's or a Flagrant. In an ejection the individual is required to leave. We cannot require kids to leave without adult supervision. What the rules state and what states choose to do is up to the individual state and not the NFHS. There is no national policy that a player that receives 2 T's get a 1 game suspension so looking for that in the rule book is an effort in futility.

I'm not sure what it is that I believe that everyone else disagrees. I'm only asking for clarification between ejection vs. DQ as I stated, the rule book as I read it, uses the term DQ as reference to 5 fouls, 2 TF or a flagrant and I was seeking clarification regarding participation in the next contest; I haven't seen anything in the NFHS book about the next game, which leads me to believe that Washington has this in addition to Fed rules. I'm not arguing, just seeking clarification. Thanks.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

I haven't seen anything in the NFHS book about the next game, which leads me to believe that Washington has this in addition to Fed rules. I'm not arguing, just seeking clarification. Thanks.

You aren't going to find it in the Fed rule book. It's not a playing rule. It is essentially an eligibility rule that is imposed by your state. Practically(?) every state has similar rules, but it is not a Fed rule.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I don't think you read the NFHS Basketball Rules very well.

Please read very caefully: R4-S14-A1; and the NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by jamesshank

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

James:

R4-S14-A1 defines how a Player is Disqualified. The word "Player" in this definition does not just mean the five (5) players currently participating in the game but also to the Substitutes who are not currently participating in the game. A "player" who is Disqualified cannot continue to participate in the game. Purge the word "ejection" from your vocabulary with respect to "players" who are Disqualified. To say that a "player" has been "ejected" would be incorrect by rule.

The NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6 deals with the Head Coach and all other Adult Bench Personnel. By rule the HC is both Disqualified and Ejected and all other Adult Bench Personnel are Ejected.

If you think I am picking nits with regard to these two rules, you would be absolutely correct. Being precise and using correct terminology is what separates the rules experts (game officials) and the players, coaches, game administrators, fans, the press, some members of the rules committee and StateHSAA administrators, and especially howler monkeys (idiot coaches and ignorant talking heads) and fans boys (idiot fans).

As a historian of the rules of the game, a former rules interpreter, and a past member of several IAABO national committees, nothing fries my tuchus more that officials that do not speak the rules correctly.

MTD, Sr.

[jamesshank]

As a historian of the rules of the game, a former rules interpreter, and a past member of several IAABO national committees, nothing fries my tuchus more that officials that do not speak the rules correctly.

I agree completely and I really appreciate this forum because it allows a complete discussion with like-minded individuals so that I can be better and more correct in my verbiage...thank you

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

NFHS rules are often "enhanced" by states. Most states have additional penalties (suspensions) for any player or coach who is disqualified for any reason other than 5 total fouls. That's a state rule. Any penalties that extend beyond the game in question are strictly state rules, so you won't find them in the rule book.

You'll also notice (if I remember correctly) that the only reference to an ejection in the NFHS book is regarding a coach who must leave the confines of the gym.

And I still want to know why players were DQd who hadn't entered the court? How can they have left the bench if they didn't go on the court?

[Freddy]

Piggy-backing with the previous, check with your state for two inevitable things:
1) Their specific penalties regarding eligibility in upcoming games for unsportingly disqualified players (2 T's or a flagrant foul) and ejected adult bench personnel which the NFHS does not stipulate, and
2) Wording in their official documents which blurs the distinction, well-expressed in the NFHS books, between "disqualification" and "ejection".
Our state does both. Quite well.

[Adam]

I would add that for officials, the ensuing suspensions are not our business. Suspensions are enforced by the state governing bodies, not game officials.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Adam

I would add that for officials, the ensuing suspensions are not our business. Suspensions are enforced by the state governing bodies, not game officials.

Adam is correct. The weak link in the chain, however -- at least around here -- has been an occasional neglect of the necessary reporting to the state the official needs to do the night of or morning after the infraction. Some states require a report to the state for even an unsporting technical. Others for two technicals or a flagrant on a player or an adult bench personnel ejection. It's up to us to know what the states in which we work require and to comply with what's expected of us.

[SC Official]

SC requires us to fill out an "ejection report" "whenever a player or coach is ejected" (or some vague wording along those lines). It's universally understood that, for basketball, this means a report is required whenever any individual receives two technical fouls, a single flagrant technical or personal foul, or a head coach receives three indirect technical fouls.

It is expected that the official who issues the second 'T' will be the one to submit the report in a garden-variety "ejection."

And I agree with Adam. Anything that happens as a result of the penalties we assess for participants' actions is not our business even though some officials think it is.