NFHS brawl

[jamesshank]

Situation (not my game, thank goodness) a fight breaks out; players leave the bench; players are not ejected but are "disqualified" because the officials can't prove they were on the court...not sure if players can be "disqualified" without receiving five fouls. Also, not sure if this is correct protocol. My belief is players that left the bench area are ejected and if there is not definite knowledge of them leaving the bench area, then they can't be "disqualified". Please give me your thoughts. Thanks.

[Nevadaref]

There are no players on the bench by definition. Those individuals are team members.
As for being disqualified, why would any official penalize what wasn't observed? How could a team member be DQ'd without at least one official stating that he saw number X on the playing floor during the altercation?

[Camron Rust]

"Ejected" is just an alternative, but somewhat inaccurate, work for disqualified. When people say "ejected", they really mean disqualified. To be DQ'd, you have to charge the player with a foul (either the 5th total foul, 2nd technicals, or a single flagrant). If you don't do that, they can not be DQ'd.

You have to know who to penalize in order to penalize. You can't just pick some. Now, if the see the bench 100% empty, you can, if the book is keeping track, know who was in the game and go from that, but most books don't who is in the game at the moment, just who played in each quarter.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

"Ejected" is just an alternative, but somewhat inaccurate, work for disqualified. When people say "ejected", they really mean disqualified. To be DQ'd, you have to charge the player with a foul (either the 5th total foul, 2nd technicals, or a single flagrant). If you don't do that, they can not be DQ'd.

You have to know who to penalize in order to penalize. You can't just pick some. Now, if the see the bench 100% empty, you can, if the book is keeping track, know who was in the game and go from that, but most books don't who is in the game at the moment, just who played in each quarter.

Let me piggy back onto Camron post. Camron is correct. By rule a player is Disqualified. Also by rule, a HC is Disqualified and Ejected, and all other adult personnel are Ejected.

MTD, Sr.

[jamesshank]

After reading in the book, I see no difference between the two. In Washington state, however, an ejected player or coach is prohibited from participating in the next contest; a player who is "disqualified" due to 5 fouls, is obviously allowed to play in the next game. I need to get further clarification from our state association. Thanks for the replies.

[jamesshank]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There are no players on the bench by definition. Those individuals are team members.
As for being disqualified, why would any official penalize what wasn't observed? How could a team member be DQ'd without at least one official stating that he saw number X on the playing floor during the altercation?

Thanks for the clarification.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

After reading in the book, I see no difference between the two. In Washington state, however, an ejected player or coach is prohibited from participating in the next contest; a player who is "disqualified" due to 5 fouls, is obviously allowed to play in the next game. I need to get further clarification from our state association. Thanks for the replies.

I don't think you read the NFHS Basketball Rules very well.

Please read very caefully: R4-S14-A1; and the NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6.

MTD, Sr.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Now, if the see the bench 100% empty, you can, if the book is keeping track, know who was in the game and go from that, but most books don't who is in the game at the moment, just who played in each quarter.

There are a couple scorekeepers in my area who list the numbers of the starting 5 at the top of each team's page. Then, everytime someone enters the game, their number is added, and the person they replaced is crossed out. Something like this would be VERY HELPFUL if there ever was a bench clearing brawl to be able to tell who came off the bench.

[Adam]

Off the bench = on the court. If the team members merely stand up, I'm not going to charge them with anything. If they get onto the court, now they've left the bench. I'm really not sure how a player leaves the bench without getting onto the court.

Added: And NFHS verbiage typically distinguishes between ejected and DQ'd by noting "ejected" means they have to leave the gym. DQ'd players are only rarely required to leave the gym (note, you'll likely never have that situation), and only with adult supervision.

[jamesshank]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I don't think you read the NFHS Basketball Rules very well.

Please read very caefully: R4-S14-A1; and the NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6.

MTD, Sr.

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

I learned a long time that if EVERYONE is saying something contrary to what I believe I am probably wrong. 100% of the time this is true. There are differences and DQ's as mentioned above can happen for several reasons.

Your state may simply be using ejected as a term that is most understood when a player/coach gets 2 T's or a Flagrant. Being DQ'd for 5 fouls is NOT the same as being DQ's for 2 T's or a Flagrant. In an ejection the individual is required to leave. We cannot require kids to leave without adult supervision. What the rules state and what states choose to do is up to the individual state and not the NFHS. There is no national policy that a player that receives 2 T's get a 1 game suspension so looking for that in the rule book is an effort in futility.

[jamesshank]

Originally Posted by deecee

I learned a long time that if EVERYONE is saying something contrary to what I believe I am probably wrong. 100% of the time this is true. There are differences and DQ's as mentioned above can happen for several reasons.

Your state may simply be using ejected as a term that is most understood when a player/coach gets 2 T's or a Flagrant. Being DQ'd for 5 fouls is NOT the same as being DQ's for 2 T's or a Flagrant. In an ejection the individual is required to leave. We cannot require kids to leave without adult supervision. What the rules state and what states choose to do is up to the individual state and not the NFHS. There is no national policy that a player that receives 2 T's get a 1 game suspension so looking for that in the rule book is an effort in futility.

I'm not sure what it is that I believe that everyone else disagrees. I'm only asking for clarification between ejection vs. DQ as I stated, the rule book as I read it, uses the term DQ as reference to 5 fouls, 2 TF or a flagrant and I was seeking clarification regarding participation in the next contest; I haven't seen anything in the NFHS book about the next game, which leads me to believe that Washington has this in addition to Fed rules. I'm not arguing, just seeking clarification. Thanks.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

I haven't seen anything in the NFHS book about the next game, which leads me to believe that Washington has this in addition to Fed rules. I'm not arguing, just seeking clarification. Thanks.

You aren't going to find it in the Fed rule book. It's not a playing rule. It is essentially an eligibility rule that is imposed by your state. Practically(?) every state has similar rules, but it is not a Fed rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

NFHS rules are often "enhanced" by states. Most states have additional penalties (suspensions) for any player or coach who is disqualified for any reason other than 5 total fouls. That's a state rule. Any penalties that extend beyond the game in question are strictly state rules, so you won't find them in the rule book.

You'll also notice (if I remember correctly) that the only reference to an ejection in the NFHS book is regarding a coach who must leave the confines of the gym.

And I still want to know why players were DQd who hadn't entered the court? How can they have left the bench if they didn't go on the court?

[Freddy]

Piggy-backing with the previous, check with your state for two inevitable things:
1) Their specific penalties regarding eligibility in upcoming games for unsportingly disqualified players (2 T's or a flagrant foul) and ejected adult bench personnel which the NFHS does not stipulate, and
2) Wording in their official documents which blurs the distinction, well-expressed in the NFHS books, between "disqualification" and "ejection".
Our state does both. Quite well.