End of game situation

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by deecee

Except what makes the ball dead? The horn sounding the end of playing time unless the ball is in flight for a shot. This isn't a horn issue, its a timing issue.

If the clock had been properly started, I'd agree with you. But the official knew that the horn should never have sounded because he never chopped in time. So it's not a legitimate horn.

I suppose we may have to agree to disagree. This is a great play for discussion, I do admit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rich]

It's not cut-and-dried to me.

I'm likely going to give B the ball at the OOB spot and reset the clock. It's the outcome that would've happened and sometimes you have to officiate with the rule book, not to it.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's not cut-and-dried to me.

I'm likely going to give B the ball at the OOB spot and reset the clock. It's the outcome that would've happened and sometimes you have to officiate with the rule book, not to it.

+1. That was what my initial post was supposed to convey.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's not cut-and-dried to me.

I'm likely going to give B the ball at the OOB spot and reset the clock. It's the outcome that would've happened and sometimes you have to officiate with the rule book, not to it.

Agreed. It's one of those plays where if it's on a test you put down one answer and if it's a real game you *might* do something different.

I have had a similar game where the FT was missed and all 10 (well, probably 5 or so) players were going for the ball when the horn went off -- we had to go to the arrow. The HT coach was NOT happy with his timer.

[LRZ]

There is no TC while the ball is in flight during a try for a goal (Rule 4-12-3, 4-12-6); a FT is a try for a goal (4-20-1); so there was no TC.

A1 was the last to touch the live ball before it went out of bounds (Rule 7-2-1). Officials may correct obvious timing mistakes when they have definite information of the time involved (Rule 5-10-1).

So B's ball for a throw-in, with .6 seconds on the clock.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

If the clock had been properly started, I'd agree with you. But the official knew that the horn should never have sounded because he never chopped in time. So it's not a legitimate horn.

I suppose we may have to agree to disagree. This is a great play for discussion, I do admit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're missing the point. Whether the clock should or shouldn't have stopped, or started is irrelevant. It's that it did. Therefore it's a timing error and mistake and the horn going off is part of that mistake. Part of the error is that regulation should NOT have ended. So the horn isn't the error, it's that the clock started when it shouldn't have.

[BigCat]

When the end of a quarter, half or game is really close...seconds, and the clock is going to be started on an inbounds play or, as here, a FT, it isnt a bad idea to remind the timer to start it "on my signal."

"Watch my arm ...etc". There are timers who i know dont need this reminder but it doesnt hurt to say it.

[BigCat]

I'm with Rich that it isnt cut and dried..
I understand Decees position. The horn that blew wasnt just a horn that blows by mistake while time is running and left on the clock. It is the end of game or quarter horn. Does that mean the ball becomes dead at that moment (because no try in flight etc) and have to go to arrow? Or, because we know that horn shouldnt have blown and we know there is a half second left can we let play continue for what we say is a half second? Or in the OP give the ball to B for a throw in out of bounds because it would have been B ball there?

Say there is two seconds left on the clock in a tie game and A has the ball under their basket. They run a great play and A2 comes for a wide open layup. He catches the ball and the game ending horn goes off. CLEARLY clock was started early. Because it was the game ending horn does the ball become dead and A has to run another inbounds play with 2 put back on the clock? Or because we know there was 2 seconds can we let the play continue for the two seconds and then declare game over? Ignore that horn like we can other horns?

We know if the clock doesnt start when it should and we have a count we can take time off the clock. We also know if the timer stops the clock after a made basket we can take time off the clock based on our inbounds count etc. This is my nightmare scenario and why when it is a potential issue i always talk to the timer.....I tend to agree with Deecee and in my example A would have to take the ball out again if we went by rule. It is not cut and dry.....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Say there is two seconds left on the clock in a tie game and A has the ball under their basket. They run a great play and A2 comes for a wide open layup. He catches the ball and the game ending horn goes off. CLEARLY clock was started early. Because it was the game ending horn does the ball become dead and A has to run another inbounds play with 2 put back on the clock? Or because we know there was 2 seconds can we let the play continue for the two seconds and then declare game over? Ignore that horn like we can other horns?

Give the ball back to A at the spot nearest the ball when the horn went off (in this play, where A2 had the ball; not necessarily the spot of the original throw-in) with whatever time is left between 2 seconds and however much time elapsed after A2 had the ball and the horn.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Give the ball back to A at the spot nearest the ball when the horn went off (in this play, where A2 had the ball; not necessarily the spot of the original throw-in) with whatever time is left between 2 seconds and however much time elapsed after A2 had the ball and the horn.

How do you determine the amount of time A2 had the ball, though?

This conversation is changing how I officiate the end of close games, to make sure these things don't happen. Because I see huge messes.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

How do you determine the amount of time A2 had the ball, though?

Count. You should at least be able to get .5 seconds (nearly) correct. And, there's some case play to the effect that "at least some time has to come off -- perhaps .3 seconds" when the ball is caught and the whstle / horn blows simultaneously.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

How do you determine the amount of time A2 had the ball, though?

This conversation is changing how I officiate the end of close games, to make sure these things don't happen. Because I see huge messes.

I try (and I preface this with the word TRY) to have an internal count in instances with less than a minute on the clock and we have an inbounds play or stoppage. It goes off without a hitch 100% of the time I remember to do this. Not so successful when I forget.

My rule of thumb is if the team with the ball appears to have an imminent attempt to score I will not blow the game dead. If say there is 10 seconds on the clock and then inbounds and take a couple dribbles and I notice the clock hasn't started I blow it dead right away.

My hope is I get it quick enough where we don't have to worry about taking time off the clock. This doesn't always happen and usually it would end up being in the 1-3 second time to be removed. That's why it's so important for the off ball official in 2-man to check the clock in these instances because the on ball guy usually will have action right in front of him and it makes it difficult to peel your eyes away.