Four questions

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Re: 1) and 2) see 4-21 FUMBLE and Case Book 4.44 SITUATION B

It's June, and I'm far away from being in "rules mode," but I wouldn't cite 4.44B for 1 and 2. In those plays above the ball is clearly slipping out of the shooter's hands. They are not "trys" under the rules so team control is not lost. 4.44 B allows the player to run and recover a "try", dribble etc because player and team control is lost. That is the basis of that play. So I think it is different than what we see in the OP 1 and 2.

Again, I'm not in rules mode and I know one of the arguments is that when a player jumps to shoot there's language saying he must shoot or pass etc. (he can also call timeout). The play id cite is the one where the player ends his dribble and fumbles it away. He is allowed to go retrieve it. We know that when I end a dribble I'm supposed to pivot, shoot or pass etc.(timeout also). That case play allows the player to go get the ball if it was actually "fumbled." accidental loss of player control.

If the ball slips out of the shooters hands and goes backward---truly a "fumble" ACCIDENTAL why would we not let him go retrieve it? The player who ends the dribble isn't supposed to be able to move the ball to another location on court by himself but we allow it if it was accidental/fumble. Why treat the shooter differently? If it is truly a fumble/accidental. Personally, I'm thinking the ACCIDENTAL nature of the loss of player control is the key not whether the player has ended the dribble or is shooting.

Anyway, this is off top of my head. There may be other plays that i'm not thinking of or interps etc. thx

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by BigCat

It's June, and I'm far away from being in "rules mode," but I wouldn't cite 4.44B for 1 and 2. In those plays above the ball is clearly slipping out of the shooter's hands. They are not "trys" under the rules so team control is not lost. 4.44 B allows the player to run and recover a "try", dribble etc because player and team control is lost. That is the basis of that play. So I think it is different than what we see in the OP 1 and 2.

Again, I'm not in rules mode and I know one of the arguments is that when a player jumps to shoot there's language saying he must shoot or pass etc. (he can also call timeout). The play id cite is the one where the player ends his dribble and fumbles it away. He is allowed to go retrieve it. We know that when I end a dribble I'm supposed to pivot, shoot or pass etc.(timeout also). That case play allows the player to go get the ball if it was actually "fumbled." accidental loss of player control.

If the ball slips out of the shooters hands and goes backward---truly a "fumble" ACCIDENTAL why would we not let him go retrieve it? The player who ends the dribble isn't supposed to be able to move the ball to another location on court by himself but we allow it if it was accidental/fumble. Why treat the shooter differently? If it is truly a fumble/accidental. Personally, I'm thinking the ACCIDENTAL nature of the loss of player control is the key not whether the player has ended the dribble or is shooting.

Anyway, this is off top of my head. There may be other plays that i'm not thinking of or interps etc. thx

We agree. Your first paragraph, above, and my references, help set the parameters for the discovery of what is directly pertinent, in the discussions/arguments to which the OP alluded. Most of the discussions regarding the topics at hand, involve the different legal/illegal actions after a fumble, as compared to those following an unsuccessful shot attempt.
Some persons may also differentiate between a fumble by an airborne player and a player in contact with the floor, as well as whether a dribble has occurred, before the loss of ball control, for example, whether the fumble by the airborne player should be considered as the start of a/another dribble, when the player is thereafter, first to touch the ball.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

We agree.

I know. Most of my comments were directed to the issue deecee raised. I'm just not computer literate enough to put quotes from separate people on same reply…...

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

It's June, and I'm far away from being in "rules mode," but I wouldn't cite 4.44B for 1 and 2. In those plays above the ball is clearly slipping out of the shooter's hands. They are not "trys" under the rules so team control is not lost. 4.44 B allows the player to run and recover a "try", dribble etc because player and team control is lost. That is the basis of that play. So I think it is different than what we see in the OP 1 and 2.

Again, I'm not in rules mode and I know one of the arguments is that when a player jumps to shoot there's language saying he must shoot or pass etc. (he can also call timeout). The play id cite is the one where the player ends his dribble and fumbles it away. He is allowed to go retrieve it. We know that when I end a dribble I'm supposed to pivot, shoot or pass etc.(timeout also). That case play allows the player to go get the ball if it was actually "fumbled." accidental loss of player control.

If the ball slips out of the shooters hands and goes backward---truly a "fumble" ACCIDENTAL why would we not let him go retrieve it? The player who ends the dribble isn't supposed to be able to move the ball to another location on court by himself but we allow it if it was accidental/fumble. Why treat the shooter differently? If it is truly a fumble/accidental. Personally, I'm thinking the ACCIDENTAL nature of the loss of player control is the key not whether the player has ended the dribble or is shooting.

Anyway, this is off top of my head. There may be other plays that i'm not thinking of or interps etc. thx

I can't completely disagree with your logic, nor would I fault an official for allowing this (BTW if my partner allows this in a game and I am in the same position I would follow his/her lead). However, with that being said and airborne shooter is only "allowed" 2 actions (shoot or pass) otherwise we have a violation.

Since the rulebook treats a player who has gone airborne very differently I do not see why the concept for a player who has not gone airborne and loses the ball "fumble" would apply.

In all honesty at the varsity level or above a player going for a shot isn't just going to lose control as described so I dont really have to worry about this. I may expect this at a lower level of play like middle school or lower.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

I can't completely disagree with your logic, nor would I fault an official for allowing this (BTW if my partner allows this in a game and I am in the same position I would follow his/her lead). However, with that being said and airborne shooter is only "allowed" 2 actions (shoot or pass) otherwise we have a violation.

Since the rulebook treats a player who has gone airborne very differently I do not see why the concept for a player who has not gone airborne and loses the ball "fumble" would apply.

In all honesty at the varsity level or above a player going for a shot isn't just going to lose control as described so I dont really have to worry about this. I may expect this at a lower level of play like middle school or lower.

Obviously a player ending dribble, standing on floor etc is physically different from shooting a basketball. I think that's not the right focus. The player on ground has rules that do not allow him to move the ball from location to another without someone else touching, shooting etc. He's allowed to go from point A to B if he fumbles the ball. Again, why apply it differently? The physical acts are different but both are Accidental/fumble losses of control. When I have time I will search Jurassic posts. RIP Jurassic

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sj

1) A1 jumps to attempt a three-point shot but the ball immediately slips out of his hands ...
2) A1 jumps to attempt a three-point shot but the ball immediately slips out of his hands ...

Originally Posted by BigCat

They are not "trys" under the rules so team control is not lost.

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

Are we 100% certain that situation 1 and 2 do not represent trys?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

Are we 100% certain that situation 1 and 2 do not represent trys?

When I catch the ball and start to raise it up to shoot or pass..and then defender hits my arm you as referee have to make judgment. Was I shooting or passing. If I start bringing ball up and mean to shoot or pass...but it slips out of my hand...it is a slip/fumble. It was going to be a try or pass but it ended up a "slip/fumble." Not a try

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

When I catch the ball and start to raise it up to shoot or pass..and then defender hits my arm you as referee have to make judgment. Was I shooting or passing. If I start bringing ball up and mean to shoot or pass...but it slips out of my hand...it is a slip/fumble. It was going to be a try or pass but it ended up a "slip/fumble." Not a try

Sounds good, but I'm still hung up on the word "attempt", both in sj's post, and in the written rule. sj is actually calling this a shot attempt. In sj's (an official) "judgment" the player is "attempting to throw for goal", words right there in Rule 4-41.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, but I'm still hung up on the word "attempt", both in sj's post, and in the written rule. sj is actually calling this a shot attempt. In sj's (an official) "judgment" the player is "attempting to throw for goal", words right there in Rule 4-41.

He is "attempting" to try for goal. If he's fouled before ball slips give him 2. If the ball slips..he was "attempting" to try for goal but it is not a try. Slip. Attempting a try and bring a try are fifferent here....

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Attempting a try and bring a try are different here....

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-41: Shooting, Try, Tap
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.

Let's try it this way. If I have the ball on offense, in the paint and jump with it I can make it look to you, the referee and the world, that I'm going to shoot it. I may be thinking pass the entire time. If I am fouled at that moment you have to make a judgment on whether I was attempting to shoot or not. If I'm not fouled you don't have to make that judgment yet. If instead of shooting it, I dump it down to A2 are you going to start the 3 count in lane over? No. I didn't shoot it, I passed it so team control continues.

In the OP the player starts up with the ball and it slips and flies backwards. If there's a foul while he is going up etc you have to make a judgment at that time as to what you think he was or wasn't doing. If there isn't a foul, wait and see what he does with the ball. If it slips and flies behind him it's a fumble. Team control continues. If he releases it and it looks like a try to you then that's what it is.

In summary--a fumble is a fumble. A try is a try....