NCAAM 10-second violation application...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time.

It does in college. That is all you need to know.

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

Again the college rule is different. If the ball starts in the FC and goes to the BC, you have a different issue don't you think? You would not be using the shot clock and it reading 20 as the standard now would you?

We can either count with our arm like we always did or note the time on the clock when the violation would take place.

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We can either count with our arm like we always did or note the time on the clock when the violation would take place.

Peace

Not sure I would advocate using a visible count on this type of play. The only listed exception to using the shot clock for backcourt counts is when there is no shot clock.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Not sure I would advocate using a visible count on this type of play. The only listed exception to using the shot clock for backcourt counts is when there is no shot clock.

I have talked with several individuals about this and there are some that would and others that wouldn't and others that would. Again, we are talking about a rare situation. Not many times where the shot clock starts then you have a gap and the ball in the backcourt for the 10 second count. Very rare and I have yet to see that situation where the ball would get stuck there for some time.

Peace

[BoomerSooner]

This is where I was trying to go with the conversation and appreciate everyone's input. I don't have any experience working NCAA games and thus my reading of the rule book is the basis of my knowledge. I don't have the benefit of having the same background that tells me how to interpret what is written that I was looking for from those of you do have that experience.

I agree that the shot clock and 10-second count will start simultaneously the vast majority of the time and that is where this thread started. I may have been better served by starting a new thread as I was wanting to learn when to start the count in situations other than the basic A is inbounding the ball after a made basket and how to handle it when they don't start simultaneously. In the end, I think what led me to complicate this was the additional language in 9.10 that covers when to start the 10-second count despite 2.9 indicating that the shot clock is utilized to administer the 10-second count. Thank you all again for the feedback.

[David M]

It is my understanding that the shot clock and game clock start on touch but the 10 second count starts with control. If so the shot clock and 10 second count could be very different.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David M

It is my understanding that the shot clock and game clock start on touch but the 10 second count starts with control. If so the shot clock and 10 second count could be very different.

Completely incorrect in NCAA (on 99% of throw-ins). Read the entire thread.

[Raymond]

I believe the question Boomer wants to ask is what do we do on a throw-in that's touched by the defense first in the frontcourt and then bounds into the back court. Would the 10-second count start when the ball hits the backboard or when Team A touches or possesses the ball in the backcourt.

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[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I believe the question Boomer wants to ask is what do we do on a throw-in that's touched by the defense first in the frontcourt and then bounds into the back court. Would the 10-second count start when the ball hits the backboard or when Team A touches or possesses the ball in the backcourt.

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You are getting to the heart of my questions. I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the criteria is for starting the 10-second count and how to administer the count if the shot clock and 10-second count don't both start at 30. Here is a bullet point recap of what I feel like I've learned thus far:

• When inbounding the ball, contact with any player starts the shot clock and the 10-second count if said player is in the backcourt of the team in possession.

• When the ball being inbounded is deflected into the backcourt by B who is in the front court, the shot clock starts and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the ball is in play in the frontcourt and is deflected into the backcourt by B, the shot clock continues and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the 10-second count and the shot clock start simultaneously, the 10-second count is administered via the shot clock and it is a violation if the ball has not been advanced before the shot clock shows 20 seconds.

• If the 10-second count is started after the shot clock shows less than 30 seconds, the shot clock can still be utilized to administer 10-second count. Alternatively a visible count is acceptable (required if the shot clock is turned off or not visible).

Where I'm still not 100% certain is when the 10-second count starts if A has advanced the ball into the frontcourt and the ball is then then deflected by B into the backcourt and is touched by B (or an official if it makes any difference) in the backcourt.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

You are getting to the heart of my questions. I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the criteria is for starting the 10-second count and how to administer the count if the shot clock and 10-second count don't both start at 30. Here is a bullet point recap of what I feel like I've learned thus far:

• When inbounding the ball, contact with any player starts the shot clock and the 10-second count if said player is in the backcourt of the team in possession.

• When the ball being inbounded is deflected into the backcourt by B who is in the front court, the shot clock starts and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the ball is in play in the frontcourt and is deflected into the backcourt by B, the shot clock continues and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

• When the 10-second count and the shot clock start simultaneously, the 10-second count is administered via the shot clock and it is a violation if the ball has not been advanced before the shot clock shows 20 seconds.

• If the 10-second count is started after the shot clock shows less than 30 seconds, the shot clock can still be utilized to administer 10-second count. Alternatively a visible count is acceptable (required if the shot clock is turned off or not visible).

Where I'm still not 100% certain is when the 10-second count starts if A has advanced the ball into the frontcourt and the ball is then then deflected by B into the backcourt and is touched by B (or an official if it makes any difference) in the backcourt.

The plays in red are the same -- start the 10-second count when A touches the ball.

I think a count is ONLY allowed under 30-seconds (true in NCAAW,; not sure in NCAAM)

Here's a relevant NCAAM case play (with a typo corrected) (the same ruling applies in NCAAW):

A.R. 206. Team A has the ball for a throw-in under its own basket with
15 seconds on the shot clock. The ball is passed inbounds (1) into Team A’s
frontcourt where it is touched by a Team B player and then continues into
Team A’s backcourt where it is touched by a Team A player with 12 seconds
remaining on the shot clock, or (2) into Team A’s backcourt where it is first
touched by any player in the backcourt.
RULING 1: The shot clock starts on the initial touch by the Team
B player, but the backcourt count does not start until the Team A
player touches the ball in the backcourt with 12 seconds on the shot
clock. There will be a 10 second backcourt violation with 2 seconds
remaining on the shot clock if the ball fails to gain frontcourt status
in Team A’s continuous control.
2: When any player touches the ball on a throw-in, the shot clock
shall start. When the first touch occurs in Team A’s backcourt,
the 10 second backcourt count shall also begin. There will be a
10 second backcourt violation with 5 seconds remaining on the
shot clock when the ball fails to gain frontcourt status in Team A’s
continuous control.