Another should this have been a TC foul--Duke v Yale

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by Adam

Watching the video, I probably don't call that unless things have been getting chippy. Even then, though, this isn't likely a call that's going to clean up the game.

As for TC, I have to assume the official on the floor considered black to have gained control. It's dubious, and he may think otherwise looking at video.

Yes, I agree with this. I'm really trying to spend time this off-season reviewing plays and differentiating between incidental contact and illegal contact. I think this is a great play to review, and it would be one that upon review, I would not want a whistle here, but I wanted to get other opinions.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

Yes, I agree with this. I'm really trying to spend time this off-season reviewing plays and differentiating between incidental contact and illegal contact. I think this is a great play to review, and it would be one that upon review, I would not want a whistle here, but I wanted to get other opinions.

I think that's a great way to approach the play and video in general from NCAA games. I want to see these videos for two reasons.

1. To see how the folks working at that level are calling it.
But more importantly and more significantly:
2. To see more plays and be able to figure out angles and anticipate situations that can help me get into better position to make proper calls.

There's a third reason that stems from my baseball playing days in my youth. When I played baseball, I would anticipate plays in my head and what I would do with the ball if it was hit to me in certain situations. I would envision those plays so that when they happened, my body was reflexive. It reduced my response time. I get the same benefit from reviewing these types of plays.

[HokiePaul]

So is this a correctable error situation for awarding unmerited FTs, or is the official just making an (incorrect) judgement call that the defender had possession prior to the foul?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

So is this a correctable error situation for awarding unmerited FTs, or is the official just making an (incorrect) judgement call that the defender had possession prior to the foul?

Without talking to the official, it's impossible to say.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

So is this a correctable error situation for awarding unmerited FTs, or is the official just making an (incorrect) judgement call that the defender had possession prior to the foul?

We don't know that without speaking to the official. If he believed blacks push of the ball was a dribble/possession then it is judgment and not a correctable error. FT is proper under rules. (Even if you think he is factually wrong.) If the coach goes to the table within the time limits after something like this happens, the officials get together and the calling official says, "you know what, i had a brain cramp. i wasn't saying it was possession." This would be a correctable error. An unmerited free throw was given.

[BoomerSooner]

My initial thought while watching the video the first time was that the question was if there should have been a TC foul against Yale as it looked like the Yale player had extended his left arm into the Duke player to create space. I'm not sure I would have called anything, but that is what I thought I was supposed to be looking at based on the question and the video.

After watching the entire video and realizing what call was made and what the question actually was in the OP, I re-watched the video and am not of the belief that black had gained possession when the call was made. For that reason, I'm with those that would have considered this a TC foul against Duke. I also realize that if I originally thought the Yale player had stolen the ball and then pushed the Duke player when I first watched the video that it is possible the game official considered the Yale player to have possession.

I guess as far as learning something from this, my thought is that sometimes plays aren't black and white and that is why we still need experienced officials to make judgement calls like this. If we grant other officials the benefit of the doubt on the judgement aspect of calls (and remember they don't get to watch it 3 or 4 times like I did), I think we'll realize that they are going to apply the rules correctly almost without fail at this level. We can also disagree with and discuss the judgement aspect of the call as well, but if that is the context of the discussion, I don't think it is fair to criticize the application of the rules (in this case the awarding of FTs) without acknowledging that the actual game official may have assessed the play differently.

I'd point out that the uncertainty about when/if possession changed in this case makes using this video for Nevada's purpose of stressing that loose ball fouls by A are still TC fouls a bit of a challenge. If you are decidedly in the camp that Yale had not gained possession, then it is a good example to make his point. Otherwise, I bet you find more debate about the issue of possession than discussion on TC fouls.