Video Req - CSU/Boise St - Buzzer Beater waved off....stopwatch used?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RefCT

It was said earlier and I will say it again, what it comes down to (from my view) is that the officials followed protocol but the protocol was flawed. You can't blame them, blame the software package and protocol. Based on the Deadspin article, the fact the virtual stopwatch was set to time at 30 fps, but the video was 60 fps, likely led to the time being double what it should have been.

The bigger problem here is the MWC needs to recognize that mistake and work with the vendor to fix it, or change the protocol and allow officials to use something like a traditional stopwatch instead of the faulty software package.

With hyper analysis by all outside sources (including us) due to everything in HD, mistakes like this need to be responded to and adjusted and/or fixed quickly.

I bet the MWC is using a similar system as most conferences are using. This just happened to be the situation that was high profile.

I am not sure they ultimately got this right, but it appears the clock did not start on the touch for some reason. Either way, they followed the system. Again the officials do not create the system.

I think this is just more evidence of over reviewing everything. If these guys count this basket, then someone is going to claim they did not have the clock start properly and we have a different conversation. The problem is ultimately that we are using an impossible standard for most of these situations. We are requiring technology to save every possible play instead of just doing what is obvious to us for the most part.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I bet the MWC is using a similar system as most conferences are using. This just happened to be the situation that was high profile.

I am not sure they ultimately got this right, but it appears the clock did not start on the touch for some reason. Either way, they followed the system. Again the officials do not create the system.

I think this is just more evidence of over reviewing everything. If these guys count this basket, then someone is going to claim they did not have the clock start properly and we have a different conversation. The problem is ultimately that we are using an impossible standard for most of these situations. We are requiring technology to save every possible play instead of just doing what is obvious to us for the most part.

Peace

I agree as to technology. The clock was started well within the normal margin of error for everything but a last second shot. We need to leave well enough alone.

As it was, the replay failed though the officials followed correct procedure. It would have been better if one of them had realized the stopwatch didn't make sense, but, given this had never happened before, I don't think you can expect that.

I think you can bet on this never happening again as from now on officials will verify the stopwatch speed against the game clock.

[JRutledge]

Looks like it is late.



Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Looks like it is late.



Peace

Not true. It has already been determined that the stopwatch at the bottom of the screen was running in double time. It counted 0.2 seconds for every real 0.1 second. So, the actual time taken was half of what it indicated.

The game clock, once it started, dropped to 0.7 as the stopwatch changed from 0.6 to 0.7. The game clock was at 0.4 when the stop watch hit 1.2/1.3. So, the game clock changed 0.3 in the same time the stopwatch changed 0.6.

The officials trusted the technology on the screen without realizing that the stopwatch was changing twice as fast as the game clock. I wouldn't expect them to verify that the technology was working right...that isn't their job.

It has been determined to be a bug in the software or improperly configured software.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not true. It has already been determined that the stopwatch at the bottom of the screen was running in double time. I counted 0.2 seconds for every real 0.1 second. So, the actual time taken was half of what it indicated.

The game clock, once it started, dropped to 0.7 as the stopwatch changed from 0.6 to 0.7. The game clock was at 0.4 when the stop watch hit 1.2/1.3. So, the game clock changed 0.3 in the same time the stopwatch changed 0.6.

The officials trusted the technology on the screen without realizing that the stopwatch was changing twice as fast as the game clock. I wouldn't expect them to verify that the technology was working right...that isn't their job.

It has been determined to be a bug in the software or improperly configured software.

I didn't realize there were bugs in the system. Glad I know now before ever having the chance to use it. As I said earlier, I'm a TV guy which is why I was inclined to take ESPN's numbers. When they showed the initial replay they said they took the in- and out-points on the video from the time the BSU player touched the ball until he released it. Not an exact science either but as was mentioned both came up at less than 0:00.8.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The point is that is what they used. It is not on anyone but the technology, which is my problem with all of this. There is too much usage of technology to determine things that were never determined before. Now you have the expectation of perfect with something that is flawed if not all the factors considered.

Again, this is what they used and what the rules say to use. This is what happens when you get people that never had to rule on anything making rules they do not have to enforce.

Peace

I'm not going to pan the technology but you do have to have someone there with the officials who knows how to use it, at least when it comes to a timing situation. A TV person watching it with them would most likely have picked up on the glitch. I am with you in one sense: Sometimes you can tell when something doesn't feel right. To me it didn't feel like it took 0:00.6 for the game clock to start after the ball was touched.

[Nevadaref]

• Andy KatzESPN Senior Writer

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Boise State wants a victory over Colorado State after the Mountain West Conference on Friday reversed its initial call and said a last-second 3-pointer by James Webb III should have counted and given the Broncos an 87-85 overtime victory earlier this week.
"Absolutely,'' Boise State coach Leon Rice told ESPN on Friday night. "A rule was broken in that they used a video that was not synced up, and you can't do that.''
Colorado State beat Boise State 97-93 in the second overtime, after Webb's shot was discounted to end the first. The banked 3-pointer was initially called good by the officials, but after huddling up at midcourt and watching a video replay, they overturned the call. The league then issued another statement Thursday and released the video it used to prove its point.
Initially, officials said the elapsed time of the shot took more in the range of 1.2 or 1.3 seconds instead of the 0.8 seconds that were remaining on the clock. But further video analysis was called for.
On Friday, the conference said there was a discrepancy between the "rate at which the embedded digital stopwatch advanced and the rate at which the game clock regressed during the instant replay review.'' The MWC's statement went on to say the officials made the correct decision with the evidence they had at the time. But the conference office said it didn't see a video at full speed from the production truck.
Ultimately, the conference said the one replay angle from the opposite baseline camera the officials were using wasn't at full speed when it was seen on television, and as a result the embedded stopwatch outpaced the video, giving the officials a false reading. The conference concluded by saying after measuring the timing of the shot again that Webb's shot should have counted and did get off within the 0.8 seconds remaining.
Rice said one of the officials told him Wednesday that they would take as long as needed to get the call right.
"That being said, we have an opportunity to get it right now,'' Rice said.
The Mountain West cited Rule 5, Section 5, that a result of a game cannot be overturned.
"We're doing all we can,'' Rice said. "I don't believe there is a formal protest, but it wasn't human error, it was a technological error, so the game should be over and Boise should get the W.''
Boise State (16-9, 7-5) fell into a fourth-place tie in the Mountain West with the loss. It's a game behind second-place teams Fresno State and New Mexico in the loss column and four games behind first-place San Diego State.
"It makes a big difference in the conference,'' Rice said. "We would be in second.''

[Nevadaref]

The above post reverses what was stated below in this previous release.

I had to laugh at the comment attributed to DVSport stating that its system worked correctly when we can all see that it didn't. (deleted)

======================================

Mountain West: Refs made right call in Boise State vs. CSU game

Matt L. Stephens, [email protected] 4:10 p.m. MST February 11, 2016

[Removed this video as it appears in a prior post in this thread.]

Official stopwatch replay video of controversial ending of the first overtime between Boise State and Colorado State on Wednesday at Moby Arena. Mountain West

(Photo: Ron Chenoy/USA TODAY Sports)

The referees made the correct call. That's the official statement coming from the Mountain West on Thursday, after carefully reviewing the controversial overturned call at the end of the first overtime between Boise State and CSU on Wednesday at Moby Arena.

There were 0.8 seconds remaining when Boise State's Anthony Drmic inbounded to James Webb III. Webb appeared to have made a miraculous game-winning 3-pointer, getting the ball out of his hands with 0.4 seconds showing on the clock, but after going to the monitor, the officiating crew used a stopwatch system to determine that the clock started late and that the play took closer to 1.3 seconds; therefore, the basket did not count. The video of that play and the overlay officials used is above.
CONTROVERSY: Breaking down finish between Boise State, CSU
That ruling was correct, the Mountain West office said in a news release. David Hall, Verne Harris and Tom O'Neill used the correct protocol to fix the timing error.

"The Mountain West Coordinator of Officials, the NCAA National Coordinator of Officials, the NCAA Secretary-Rules Editor and the MW Conference office have reviewed the play extensively and consulted on the administration of the video review. It has been determined the game officials executed the appropriate protocol and made the correct call.
It is standard procedure to review potential game-ending baskets and the game officials came to their determination utilizing the official video and embedded clock technology within the approved multi-camera capture instant replay system. ...
It is clear 1.2 to 1.3 seconds elapsed from the time the player touched the ball to the time the shot was released, and that the game clock did not start for several tenths of a second after the initial touch. Thus, the basket did not count – regardless of what was ultimately reflected on the game clock or what other unofficial video replays may appear to indicate.
Finally, some question has been raised regarding the preceding play, where Colorado State turned the ball over. The Mountain West has also reviewed that play utilizing the official replay system and determined the clock stopped correctly at 0.8 second(s) once the official blew his whistle for the backcourt violation. His whistle stopped the clock automatically via the Precision Timing System at that instant."

But when watching the video, it appears to (sic) stopwatch time is moving faster that the arena's clock. The Coloradoan contacted DVSport, which said its system worked correctly and that all questions should be directed to the Mountain West Conference. The conference has not commented about the stopwatch's speed.
CSU won the game 97-93 in double overtime.
For insight and analysis on athletics around Northern Colorado and the Mountain West, follow sports columnist Matt L. Stephens at twitter.com/mattstephens and facebook.com/stephensreporting.

[deecee]

Jrut, thats the faulty clock. you will see the stopwatch and the game clock are moving at 2 different speeds. Either the game clock is broken or this replay clock is. But there is no way. This may just be what was released to show what the officials used.

When the game clock is at .6 the stopwatch is at .8, and when the game clock reaches .4 the stopwatch is at 1.2.

[JRutledge]

The point is that is what they used. It is not on anyone but the technology, which is my problem with all of this. There is too much usage of technology to determine things that were never determined before. Now you have the expectation of perfect with something that is flawed if not all the factors considered.

Again, this is what they used and what the rules say to use. This is what happens when you get people that never had to rule on anything making rules they do not have to enforce.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The point is that is what they used. It is not on anyone but the technology, which is my problem with all of this. There is too much usage of technology to determine things that were never determined before. Now you have the expectation of perfect with something that is flawed if not all the factors considered.

Again, this is what they used and what the rules say to use. This is what happens when you get people that never had to rule on anything making rules they do not have to enforce.

Peace

I can't wait until robots officiate. Do you think they will take ANY crap from coaches or players. Coach's toe is on the coach's box line - T. Kid looks at the ref wrong - T. Coach yawns - T.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The point is that is what they used. It is not on anyone but the technology, which is my problem with all of this. There is too much usage of technology to determine things that were never determined before. Now you have the expectation of perfect with something that is flawed if not all the factors considered.

Again, this is what they used and what the rules say to use. This is what happens when you get people that never had to rule on anything making rules they do not have to enforce.

Peace

The rules they made are just fine. There was a bug in the program, not a problem with the rule or the protocol. Like it or not, technology is far better at these things than humans. People expect it to be right but mistakes are still made. This will be fixed and it will not happen again.

We could do it like soccer and just have the referee decide the game has ended somewhere after the time actually runs out.

[mtn335]

We could also do like football and have the game end at the end of the play that's underway when time expires. For basketball, I would say that the game ends when neither team is in team control after time has expired. If nobody's in control, game's over at once; if control is given up for a try, the game extends through the end of that try.


...nah, I like what we have better.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rules they made are just fine. There was a bug in the program, not a problem with the rule or the protocol. Like or not, technology is far better at these things than humans. People expect it to be right but mistakes are still made. This will be fixed and it will not happen again.

We could do it like soccer and just have the referee decide the game has ended somewhere after the time actually runs out.

Better they find out now with a game (relatively) no one cares about than have something like this come up in March.