Score book shenanigans

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who is trying to be argumentative? You have vets telling you how it's properly handled. What source do you use to prove the names and numbers were provided?

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I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

They aren't, but it's "implied" in the part that says the coach's responsibility is to provide the information. Whether it's the Visitor book, a program, or some internet publication....

I'm not going straight to the visitor book, I'm asking the coach how he provided the information and we'll go from there.

Added: I know we're probably in agreement, I just wanted to address the part about the words not being in the book.

[chapmaja]

In my opinion, this is where basketball needs to do what volleyball does. In volleyball, the coach has to turn in a roster and lineup sheet to the table at a specified time before the match and before each set.

In basketball, you can easily require the coaches to turn in a roster sheet with a column to list the starters. This would be the only legal way to turning in the roster/starters for a game. That paper, like in volleyball, would be required to stay at the table. Should an issue with the starters / roster come to the officials attention, there is one piece of paper that the officials can use to verify if the roster / starters was properly turned in. If the coach screwed up, they get the consequence. If the scorer screwed up, we fix the mistake and move on. With this required piece of paper, we avoid the confusion of "Where did you get the information from?" It comes from one specific, legally defined location, that is accessible to all parties involved.

[SNIPERBBB]

Id prefer the baseball/Softball method, lineup card goes to the referee.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

The words "check the visitor book" aren't in there, no. The concept of checking the lineup provided by the coach is. In many cases, particularly sub-varsity, the visiting book is that lineup. That is what you seem to be missing. We're not checking the visiting book because it's the visiting book but because it's the information provided by the coach to the scorer (except where he provided something else and then we're checking that).

[BryanV21]

Wow.

The words aren't in the book, so some officials... especially newer ones... may not think to check the visitor book to make sure of a mistake in copying the presented lineup.

That's why I said what I did. Not because I don't know the rule. Not because I believe in doing exactly what the book says to do, and not doing what the book doesn't say to do. I presented it, as if talking to an inexperienced official, as a way to correct an error without creating more problems.

If saying I was wrong will end this debacle then fine... I was wrong.

[ballgame99]

Bottom line: this isn't that big of a deal, just sort it out. The only way a T is going to be given is if the coach screwed up and gave the table the wrong info and wants to "pay" to fix it after the 10 minute mark. Otherwise, Coach can make his starters match the book (even if the wrong starter trots out for the jump). Case 3.2.2 specifically says that once the game starts and an incorrect starter started, there is no penalty.

I think I will still have Coach take a look at the starters just to make sure it looks right, although the OP shows this doesn't always work. It also gives me a reason to go talk to each coach before the game without looking like I'm just chatting.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

I read every posts in this thread. If you decide to selectively read posts that's on you, but more than ONE VET properly addressed this scenario. Only person I saw being argumentative was you. "Is it in the rule book?" Yeah, it's in the rule book that a roster needs to be PROVIDED to the scorekeeper. Some of us know that the source of that roster is the visiting team's book if they brought a scorekeeper.

Your approach to learning will not suit you well in a camp environment.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I read every posts in this thread. If you decide to selectively read posts that's on you, but more than ONE VET properly addressed this scenario. Only person I saw being argumentative was you. "Is it in the rule book?" Yeah, it's in the rule book that a roster needs to be PROVIDED to the scorekeeper. Some of us know that the source of that roster is the visiting team's book if they brought a scorekeeper.

Your approach to learning will not suit you well in a camp environment.

I asked a number of times if checking the visitor book was in the rule book. It's not. Like one person said earlier, yes... it is implied to do so, as well as checking other avenues to make sure the lineup/starters were presented correctly. But checking the visitor book is not specifically in the rule book. Which brings us to this...

"Some of us know..."

So you're admitting there are some officials that would not think to check the visitor book to make sure it was a copying error, and not an error in presenting the lineup/starters.

This has nothing to do with me having to learn anything. This is an example of, at the least, a misunderstanding in my intentions when replying to the OP of this thread.

There have been plenty of assumptions made on this board, and those assumptions can sometimes lead to a feeling of being insulted. This is where I'm at.

Thank you for the advice, though.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I asked a number of times if checking the visitor book was in the rule book. It's not. Like one person said earlier, yes... it is implied to do so, as well as checking other avenues to make sure the lineup/starters were presented correctly. But checking the visitor book is not specifically in the rule book. Which brings us to this...

"Some of us know..."

So you're admitting there are some officials that would not think to check the visitor book to make sure it was a copying error, and not an error in presenting the lineup/starters.

This has nothing to do with me having to learn anything. This is an example of, at the least, a misunderstanding in my intentions when replying to the OP of this thread.

There have been plenty of assumptions made on this board, and those assumptions can sometimes lead to a feeling of being insulted. This is where I'm at.

Thank you for the advice, though.

You really should stop digging the hole you're in.

You question of "Where in the rule book does it say to check the visitor's book?" was taken by many to be an implication that it was not allowable to check the book. If that's not what you meant, you did not express yourself well. (And for that matter, you still aren't.)

There is only one avenue to explore: the list provided by the coach. It doesn't matter if that's the visiting book or the back of a take-out menu. It's the only thing you need to check.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not only that, but the coach is, by rule, not responsible for a scoring error even if you force him to sign the book.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Rich

Why would you have a coach inspect the book? Cause your partner didn't know the rules?

Yep

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

This is EXACTLY why you should have a coach from each team review the official scorebook (for correct player #'s AND correct starters) and require their initials as evidence of their approval.

This very easily removes the responsibility from the official scorer and game officials of any mistakes being made. Once the coach approves the scorebook, THAT is when the info. has been provided to the official scorer - there is NO POSSIBILITY for scorer error...

Don't mean to pile on, but this is not correct.

Originally Posted by Rich

Signing a scorebook signifies nothing.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I totally agree but as noted by others, my assn wants it done, no matter the level.

I'm in your association and I don't do it, and I can't recall ever being told that it is something that has to be done. Almost everyone does it, but like others have said above, it is pointless. The coach can initial the book, but it is still on the scorer to enter the roster correctly. I have had partners give technicals before when this happens, even when I try to convince them that the scorer simply entered the wrong number/name/starter/etc.

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Bottom line: this isn't that big of a deal, just sort it out. The only way a T is going to be given is if the coach screwed up and gave the table the wrong info and wants to "pay" to fix it after the 10 minute mark. Otherwise, Coach can make his starters match the book (even if the wrong starter trots out for the jump). Case 3.2.2 specifically says that once the game starts and an incorrect starter started, there is no penalty.

I think I will still have Coach take a look at the starters just to make sure it looks right, although the OP shows this doesn't always work. It also gives me a reason to go talk to each coach before the game without looking like I'm just chatting.

Personally I think it looks bad because it takes FOREVER. On top of that it's unnecessary.