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Wed Feb 05, 2003, 11:05pm
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Visiting scorekeeper comes to us after the first period and says that #10 for the home team wasn't in her book, but #11 was, who wasn't on the bench. We went over and looked at the home book, and sure enough, #11 had clearly been changed to #10. We asked when, and she said right after the game started. We debated what to do, in the end issued the T, started the 2nd Q with the shots, and the ball to V, and the game went on.
Home ex-AD comes and argues with us the entire half-time. Home book comes down and says she called her husband and asked him, and he said we shouldn't have issued the T, since we hadn't known it when it was changed. It took a few minutes to discover that her husband was a ref, so of course he ought to know. Now I'm looking through the books, and I think we goofed, but I don't like the set up. If home wants to change their books, they can? I mean, all she has to do is not tell us, and then when visiting book gets the jist, it's too late to penalize? What am I missing here? When she looks askance at us for enforcing, do I give her a lecture about cheating? I don't think so! Rule and Case references I'm looking at are 10-1-2c, and 10.1.2 Situation (b), which ends up with, "The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize." 
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Wed Feb 05, 2003, 11:37pm
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The case book play cited is correct. However, in this case, the home scorer clearly intended to deceive the officials and the visiting scorer. She recognized the error and took it upon herself to make the change, when what she is required to do is to notify you. (2-11-2) I would have called a T as well.
BTW, don't put up with that "Home ex-AD comes and argues with us the entire half-time" crap! 
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 03:26am
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Your official scorer is part of the officiating crew. That person is supposed to be an unbiased administrator of the game. Unfortunately, your home scorer was not. Your scorer cheated. After assessing the technical foul during the intermission between the 1st and 2nd quarters, I would have dismissed this scorer and designated the visitor's scorer as the official scorer for the rest of the game. That should fix any future problems.
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 04:46am
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Send a report to Howard on this one,Juulie.He should know that he's got "scorer problems" at this particular shool before he sends other officials in there.Maybe he can let the "current" AD at this school know that he/she has an ethics problem with their home scorer and ex-AD.
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 05:36am
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From a scorer who cares...
From a scorer who cares...
I'm a good scorekeeper. Really. I've done State Tournaments. I view every game I work -- as a scorer or a timer -- as important as a State Tournament game. But I've had to have T's called on myself. At home. I fill out my girls team's scorebook because the coach really trusts me (and he likes the way I do it). Sometimes, however, I forget once in a great while; a player comes back from an injury and I don't add her back into the lineup. It happened a few years ago and I forgot to list a player in my home book. When the player (a bench player, but a contributor to our team) came into the game, I had to notify the floor officials of the discrepancy. With a face redder than the sun. And a shrug and a sorry to my coach. (He forgave me.) Also, just last week, our JV team's coach (she fills out her own book) forgot to list a player the game after coming back from an injury. This was an away game, and when I told her the player wasn't in the book at the time of reporting, she asked what the penalty would be. I told her that if the player went into the game, we would get a T. The player then withdrew from substituting. But then the coach decided to put her in anyway a minute later and took the T. (We lost by 6, but that was because of the team's play.) Yes, it's supposed to be the Head Coach's ultimate responsibility to ensure the submitted lineup is correct. But I screwed up and it cost our team a T. (I don't think it really mattered in the end, because our team lost more games than it won.) Now I triple-check everything with my coach. The current one still really trusts me. Especially this year when I wasn't able to be at one game and he filled out the book -- he missed a player and had a couple of wrong numbers. P.S. to Juulie -- I work at a 4A High School on the West Side of town and I don't want to see that kind of stuff with the books either.
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 07:48am
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ORhoopscorer,
Your team should list every member in the book every game, whether the player is injured/sick or not! This will prevent the error you made from ever occurring. These sick/injured players are not required to play just because they are in the book, and they may be on the bench. Also, if for some strange reason your game is suspended and picked up at a later date, these players may be healthy at this later time, and if they weren't listed in the book when the game started it would cost you a T to put them in and allow them to play. In short, it's just a good idea to list everyone all the time.
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 09:15am
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Julie, as everyone else has pretty much said, you did the right thing. Not only would I have assessed the technical foul, I may have replaced the scorekeeper, run the ex-AD out of the locker room, and wrote the whole lot of them up to the state.
__________________
Church Basketball "The brawl that begins with a prayer"
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 11:11am
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Jurassic -- Don't worry, my commissioner knows, now.
Yes, I should have run her. Especially when the "ex-AD" was complaining that the visiting scorebook person was "just a player" and had no right to complain about the whole thing. I hope when the scorebook person called her husband, she also told him that she had changed it "spontaneously" and that he told her she should have reported it to us and taken her licks. What do you bet he didn't? The kicker is that the girl that had the wrong number in the book was the scorekeepers daughter!
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 11:16am
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Did you say the player with the wrong # was the daughter of the scorekeeper? As in the Homebook who cheated? And then called her husband the ref?
Quick rhetorical question. If her husband wasn't reffing a game, why wasn't he watching his daughter play basketball? <
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 12:08pm
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Quote:
__________________
"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little, piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash-up, and they go Racing In The Street." - Springsteen, 1978
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 12:13pm
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IMO since she admitted it, you have to assess a T in this situation. What would have happened if she did not admit it? What if she said that it had been changed before the R signed the book? Now there would be a problem.
---------------------------  Here is another take on the same type of situation. As I have posted, a few weeks back I served as an official timer for several games. In one of them the following happened. During the second half the home team substitutes #25 into the game. This is the first time he is in. I overhear the V book telling the H book that he does not have a 25 for the kid. Announcer had said the kids name. The number he has is 24. H book says, Yes, the coach has never changed his number on the printout. V then says OK and changes the number in his book. Neither book spoke directly to me. Im sitting there with my hand on the buzzer waiting for the next dead ball but then pull it back. In talking to the floor crew after the game their opinion was that I did the right thing by not notifying them as nothing was directly said to me. Ive brought this up several times with other officials and have received a number of different views. Surprising how a right or wrong type of answer can have so many shades of gray. So to muddy my brain even further, any comments here?
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 02:37pm
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Quote:
2) The home book is official (unless the R designated another book -- not likely). As I read the situation, the home book was correct -- it was the visitor book that was wrong. No T here.
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 03:39pm
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Chuckle chuckle
Bob are you saying you would not have issued a T in this situation because the book was correct when it was checked by the officials?
Despite the score keeper admitting that she changed the book before the game started? And likely failed to notify the visiting scorekeep so she wouldn't get caught in her cheat? It is a rather humerous situation: Mother of the player whose number needed to be changed, wife of a referee, with full conscience illegally changing the scorebook, and arguing that the referees were out of line charging a T for her blatant, conflict of interest, screw-up. And an ex-AD adding to the confusion; Juulie couldn't have invited in a few other parents for the half-time whining session? Hopefully this wasn't your varsity experience.
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 03:40pm
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Quote:
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Thu Feb 06, 2003, 03:53pm
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To NevadaRef
Believe me, I learned my lesson. When I fill out the book, I include all the players that could play for us (even if they are injured now). If a coach fills out the book, I ask them if it's their "final lineup." But sometimes, the little things slip by and mistakes are made. Even if it's my team, I will still follow the rules and we will get penalized if a book error happens.
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