Score book shenanigans

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

Actually, it does. The coach is only required to provide the information to the official scorer. That's it. 10-1-1

In the OP, the coach provided the correct information, so there should have been no penalty for the scorer to correct his own mistake.

2-11-11 "...A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score...."

This is a bookkeeping mistake and should have been corrected without penalty.

So what I laid out is stated in the rule book. I don't recall the rule book saying anything regarding the visitor/unofficial book, let alone it being used to prove the home/official book received a different starting lineup.

Are you just trying to be argumentative with me? I don't get it.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

So what I laid out is stated in the rule book. I don't recall the rule book saying anything regarding the visitor/unofficial book, let alone it being used to prove the home/official book received a different starting lineup.

Are you just trying to be argumentative with me? I don't get it.

The official book has to get the names and number from somewhere, they don't just come up with the information from thin air. It most likely came froe the visitor book unless the coach provided the scorer with a different roster.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The official book has to get the names and number from somewhere, they don't just come up with the information from thin air. It most likely came froe the visitor book unless the coach provided the scorer with a different roster.

"most likely"

Again... Where does the rule book say to use that book as proof of starters?

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[SNIPERBBB]

You can use whatever source of legal information to make a determination for making a ruling. The official book is the fallback when you can't find anything to the contrary. And the official book can be changed.

[deecee]

Man you guys are over complicating this. If I have an issue like this I ask the home (official, whatever) book, where they got the info from. Then I ask the visiting coach what he provided. If the home book used the visitors scorebook and the coach says "No i gave a piece of paper." and then we find the piece of paper case solved. If the coach says I told them to copy the visitors book and that was where the error was, then it's on the coach.

But I ask the coach what he/she provided and use that as my comparison tool. I don't go assuming anything.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

In my case I pull varsity rosters from MaxPreps and prep from that.When the varsity coaches show up I have them check and verify everything is correct before the officials are even out there.

[BoomerSooner]

As others have said, there is no requirement or support for the concept that the coach reviewing and signing the official book absolves the scorer for his/her responsibilities. The official scorekeeper's responsibilities are clearly spelled out in 2-11 and the first line reads "The scorer shall: keep a record of the names and numbers of players..." (2-11-1). Rule 2-11-2 provides the scorer with instruction to "notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules - pertaining to submission of the roster...". The scorer is solely responsible for what is in the book, and the team is solely responsible for submitting a roster.

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

In my case I pull varsity rosters from MaxPreps and prep from that.When the varsity coaches show up I have them check and verify everything is correct before the officials are even out there.

I'm sure there are plenty of coaches that appreciate this level of prep, but the danger in doing this is that each team is required to "supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players." (3-2-1). If you have gathered the information yourself and ask the coach to review it, the team has not technically met the requirement of this rule. If all of the information is correct, nobody has an issue and the game goes on. If, however, a mistake was made and the coach misses it, we come back to the point others have made about the team only has a responsibility to provide the information. In your situation, the problem is that there was no information provided by the team (you provided it) so what may have started off as a scorekeeper's error can't be corrected because the team didn't provide a roster because you already had everything in the book.

ps: I don't want this to come off as a criticism or condemnation...if this practice works for you, the teams and the referees, by all means continue with it. I only make this point to highlight what others have commented on regarding the responsibility of the team to provide the information.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

"most likely"

Again... Where does the rule book say to use that book as proof of starters?

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As the scorer, "where did you get your information?"

If the coach, or a representative of the team, filled it out directly, call the T or have him start the marked starters.

If the scorer says he got it from the V book, or from a program given him by the team, check the source document.

You need to do this to determine whether the coach met his obligations under the rule.

Again, per rule, bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

As the scorer, "where did you get your information?"

If the coach, or a representative of the team, filled it out directly, call the T or have him start the marked starters.

If the scorer says he got it from the V book, or from a program given him by the team, check the source document.

You need to do this to determine whether the coach met his obligations under the rule.

Again, per rule, bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time.

I know bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time without penalty. No where did I say otherwise. You read that into my posts. And to be honest, you're not the only one that does that, and it drives me nuts. That same thing is done to others constantly, and not necessarily by you.

All I said... AGAIN... is to go ahead and do what you can to avoid giving that technical. Check the visitor/unofficial book... check the lineup given to them on a piece of paper... whatever. Just make sure it's not a mistake.

There are some people around here that need to read a post without assuming there's something wrong in there. If you have a question about what is said... ask. Don't automatically assume you're dealing with a moron.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I know bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time without penalty. No where did I say otherwise. You read that into my posts. And to be honest, you're not the only one that does that, and it drives me nuts. That same thing is done to others constantly, and not necessarily by you.

All I said... AGAIN... is to go ahead and do what you can to avoid giving that technical. Check the visitor/unofficial book... check the lineup given to them on a piece of paper... whatever. Just make sure it's not a mistake.

There are some people around here that need to read a post without assuming there's something wrong in there. If you have a question about what is said... ask. Don't automatically assume you're dealing with a moron.

I made no such assumptions. I'm operating based on this post from you, and admittedly it's driving the way I've read your subsequent posts.

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I was making a general statement about dealing with some situations. I don't believe the rule book allows officials to use the visitor book to prove that it was an error in copying the visiting team's starters into the home/official book. But if a situation like this came up, and I can see the visitor book had the "right" starters, then I'd let it go.

Yes, in the case brought up in the OP, the official messed up.

You say the rule book doesn't allow it, the reasonable takeaway is that you're saying the rule book requires a T but we should avoid it if we can.

I'll ask you, is that what you're saying?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

I made no such assumptions. I'm operating based on this post from you, and admittedly it's driving the way I've read your subsequent posts.



You say the rule book doesn't allow it, the reasonable takeaway is that you're saying the rule book requires a T but we should avoid it if we can.

I'll ask you, is that what you're saying?

So the rule book says "if the starters are wrongly marked in the official scorebook, then check the visitors scorebook to see if there was a transcription error"?

I never said the rule book doesn't allow you to do that. I was saying that it's something an official can do on his own, meaning it's not specifically said to do in the rule book, to make sure it's not a case of the team presenting the wrong lineup/starters. It's a way to prove an error in copying the lineup/starters into the official book, which can then be corrected without error.

I know I'm not the most well-spoken person here, but I don't think it was that hard to understand what I've been saying.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

"most likely"

Again... Where does the rule book say to use that book as proof of starters?

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Who is trying to be argumentative? You have vets telling you how it's properly handled. What source do you use to prove the names and numbers were provided?

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[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Who is trying to be argumentative? You have vets telling you how it's properly handled. What source do you use to prove the names and numbers were provided?

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I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

They aren't, but it's "implied" in the part that says the coach's responsibility is to provide the information. Whether it's the Visitor book, a program, or some internet publication....

I'm not going straight to the visitor book, I'm asking the coach how he provided the information and we'll go from there.

Added: I know we're probably in agreement, I just wanted to address the part about the words not being in the book.

[chapmaja]

In my opinion, this is where basketball needs to do what volleyball does. In volleyball, the coach has to turn in a roster and lineup sheet to the table at a specified time before the match and before each set.

In basketball, you can easily require the coaches to turn in a roster sheet with a column to list the starters. This would be the only legal way to turning in the roster/starters for a game. That paper, like in volleyball, would be required to stay at the table. Should an issue with the starters / roster come to the officials attention, there is one piece of paper that the officials can use to verify if the roster / starters was properly turned in. If the coach screwed up, they get the consequence. If the scorer screwed up, we fix the mistake and move on. With this required piece of paper, we avoid the confusion of "Where did you get the information from?" It comes from one specific, legally defined location, that is accessible to all parties involved.