Score book shenanigans

[Rich]

I can't believe this is such an issue.

Ask the scorer how he got the lineup from the visiting team. If copied from the other book, check the source. And if there's any out, avoid the T.

Do we really need this spelled out in the book?

[BryanV21]

Wow.

The words aren't in the book, so some officials... especially newer ones... may not think to check the visitor book to make sure of a mistake in copying the presented lineup.

That's why I said what I did. Not because I don't know the rule. Not because I believe in doing exactly what the book says to do, and not doing what the book doesn't say to do. I presented it, as if talking to an inexperienced official, as a way to correct an error without creating more problems.

If saying I was wrong will end this debacle then fine... I was wrong.

[ballgame99]

Bottom line: this isn't that big of a deal, just sort it out. The only way a T is going to be given is if the coach screwed up and gave the table the wrong info and wants to "pay" to fix it after the 10 minute mark. Otherwise, Coach can make his starters match the book (even if the wrong starter trots out for the jump). Case 3.2.2 specifically says that once the game starts and an incorrect starter started, there is no penalty.

I think I will still have Coach take a look at the starters just to make sure it looks right, although the OP shows this doesn't always work. It also gives me a reason to go talk to each coach before the game without looking like I'm just chatting.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've actually been conversing with one vet, not multiple vets.

And we worked the misunderstanding out.

I'm not going to reiterate what I've spent the past two days explaining. If you care about it enough then you can go back and read what I've been saying about the words "check the visitor book" being in the rule book.

I read every posts in this thread. If you decide to selectively read posts that's on you, but more than ONE VET properly addressed this scenario. Only person I saw being argumentative was you. "Is it in the rule book?" Yeah, it's in the rule book that a roster needs to be PROVIDED to the scorekeeper. Some of us know that the source of that roster is the visiting team's book if they brought a scorekeeper.

Your approach to learning will not suit you well in a camp environment.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I read every posts in this thread. If you decide to selectively read posts that's on you, but more than ONE VET properly addressed this scenario. Only person I saw being argumentative was you. "Is it in the rule book?" Yeah, it's in the rule book that a roster needs to be PROVIDED to the scorekeeper. Some of us know that the source of that roster is the visiting team's book if they brought a scorekeeper.

Your approach to learning will not suit you well in a camp environment.

I asked a number of times if checking the visitor book was in the rule book. It's not. Like one person said earlier, yes... it is implied to do so, as well as checking other avenues to make sure the lineup/starters were presented correctly. But checking the visitor book is not specifically in the rule book. Which brings us to this...

"Some of us know..."

So you're admitting there are some officials that would not think to check the visitor book to make sure it was a copying error, and not an error in presenting the lineup/starters.

This has nothing to do with me having to learn anything. This is an example of, at the least, a misunderstanding in my intentions when replying to the OP of this thread.

There have been plenty of assumptions made on this board, and those assumptions can sometimes lead to a feeling of being insulted. This is where I'm at.

Thank you for the advice, though.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I asked a number of times if checking the visitor book was in the rule book. It's not. Like one person said earlier, yes... it is implied to do so, as well as checking other avenues to make sure the lineup/starters were presented correctly. But checking the visitor book is not specifically in the rule book. Which brings us to this...

"Some of us know..."

So you're admitting there are some officials that would not think to check the visitor book to make sure it was a copying error, and not an error in presenting the lineup/starters.

This has nothing to do with me having to learn anything. This is an example of, at the least, a misunderstanding in my intentions when replying to the OP of this thread.

There have been plenty of assumptions made on this board, and those assumptions can sometimes lead to a feeling of being insulted. This is where I'm at.

Thank you for the advice, though.

You really should stop digging the hole you're in.

You question of "Where in the rule book does it say to check the visitor's book?" was taken by many to be an implication that it was not allowable to check the book. If that's not what you meant, you did not express yourself well. (And for that matter, you still aren't.)

There is only one avenue to explore: the list provided by the coach. It doesn't matter if that's the visiting book or the back of a take-out menu. It's the only thing you need to check.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not only that, but the coach is, by rule, not responsible for a scoring error even if you force him to sign the book.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Rich

Why would you have a coach inspect the book? Cause your partner didn't know the rules?

Yep

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

This is EXACTLY why you should have a coach from each team review the official scorebook (for correct player #'s AND correct starters) and require their initials as evidence of their approval.

This very easily removes the responsibility from the official scorer and game officials of any mistakes being made. Once the coach approves the scorebook, THAT is when the info. has been provided to the official scorer - there is NO POSSIBILITY for scorer error...

Don't mean to pile on, but this is not correct.

Originally Posted by Rich

Signing a scorebook signifies nothing.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I totally agree but as noted by others, my assn wants it done, no matter the level.

I'm in your association and I don't do it, and I can't recall ever being told that it is something that has to be done. Almost everyone does it, but like others have said above, it is pointless. The coach can initial the book, but it is still on the scorer to enter the roster correctly. I have had partners give technicals before when this happens, even when I try to convince them that the scorer simply entered the wrong number/name/starter/etc.

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Bottom line: this isn't that big of a deal, just sort it out. The only way a T is going to be given is if the coach screwed up and gave the table the wrong info and wants to "pay" to fix it after the 10 minute mark. Otherwise, Coach can make his starters match the book (even if the wrong starter trots out for the jump). Case 3.2.2 specifically says that once the game starts and an incorrect starter started, there is no penalty.

I think I will still have Coach take a look at the starters just to make sure it looks right, although the OP shows this doesn't always work. It also gives me a reason to go talk to each coach before the game without looking like I'm just chatting.

Personally I think it looks bad because it takes FOREVER. On top of that it's unnecessary.

[BlueDevilRef]

@zm1283 I agree and don't like doing it but everyone I work with has said that's the way it's done. I've not had to T anyone for any issues, though opposing coaches have tried to get a cheap one when a book keeping error is discovered. I just try to when in Rome it. If everyone I see working better games than mine does it, I try to emulate it so maybe I can move up. I think it's silly but somebody higher on the food chain thinks it needs done, so I do.