Hanging on the Rim

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Dad

What's the reason for wanting you to get it? I'm pretty lenient on dunks for safety reasons, but maybe one of these days the other side will get me.

The feet going above the bottom of the backboard was given as a good indicator that the player unnecessarily exaggerated his swing.

A very similar dunk to this one happened in the OHSAA state finals (I think it even got discussed here). It was shown and the referee who called the T was commended both for the call and his calm manner in which he called it.

[wildcatter]

Originally Posted by Dad

I wouldn't even think about calling it. Pulling up on the rim a bit helps the swinging and control a bit. He let go once the momentum pretty much stopped.

I agree, though I'm pretty lenient too. From a safety perspective, I imagine it's a lot safer to pull up just a little bit for control purposes. Without some tension from pulling up, the player has to be worried about his hands losing his grip and his body swinging through and going flying. Maybe in a college or pro game where these guys have a lot more body control, but in a HS game, I'm letting that go for sure. To me, and maybe someone else has a better interp, that's still grasping the basket to prevent injury to himself.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

I agree, though I'm pretty lenient too. From a safety perspective, I imagine it's a lot safer to pull up just a little bit for control purposes. Without some tension from pulling up, the player has to be worried about his hands losing his grip and his body swinging through and going flying. Maybe in a college or pro game where these guys have a lot more body control, but in a HS game, I'm letting that go for sure. To me, and maybe someone else has a better interp, that's still grasping the basket to prevent injury to himself.

There is no planet where one needs to go parallel to the ground after a dunk. That only happens when the player dunking pulls his whole body up.

[wildcatter]

Originally Posted by deecee

There is no planet where one needs to go parallel to the ground after a dunk. That only happens when the player dunking pulls his whole body up.

It doesn't matter that he pulled his body up, to whatever extent, as long as he was trying to prevent injury to himself. He may have pulled up more than he anticipated, but he's not an NBA player so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't see anywhere in the rules where going parallel to the ground is an automatic T. He let go as soon as he got his balance and was able to land on his feet.

We're going to agree to disagree on this one.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

It doesn't matter that he pulled his body up, to whatever extent, as long as he was trying to prevent injury to himself. He may have pulled up more than he anticipated, but he's not an NBA player so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't see anywhere in the rules where going parallel to the ground is an automatic T. He let go as soon as he got his balance and was able to land on his feet.

We're going to agree to disagree on this one.

He's allowed to *hang*. He's not allowed to *pull up*.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

It doesn't matter that he pulled his body up, to whatever extent, as long as he was trying to prevent injury to himself. He may have pulled up more than he anticipated, but he's not an NBA player so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't see anywhere in the rules where going parallel to the ground is an automatic T. He let go as soon as he got his balance and was able to land on his feet.

We're going to agree to disagree on this one.

What Rich said. The rule allows for a player to hang on the rim to prevent injury. He simply didn't do that. That's as easy a T as I can see. He might as well have slapped the backboard on the way down.

I have no problem disagreeing with a position that is 100% incorrect. I have seen at least 2 similar videos where my HS and college assignors and interpreters have said it's a T. I'll go by their directive and my judgement.

[wildcatter]

Originally Posted by Rich

He's allowed to *hang*. He's not allowed to *pull up*.

Sorry, I don't have my case book on me, but where does it specify the difference and that he's not allowed to pull up to avoid injury? Hanging and pulling up sound like terms that have different meanings to different people. In your case, pulling up sounds like the player has body control and he intentionally pulled the rim down further for reasons other than safety.

When his momentum is taking him forward that fast, he has to put tension on the rim to get him back to a safe position. In my case, I call that pulling up. If he puts a little too much on it, his body goes up. If I think he's doing it to avoid injury vs. showboating, I'm ok with it.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

Sorry, I don't have my case book on me, but where does it specify the difference and that he's not allowed to pull up to avoid injury? Hanging and pulling up sound like terms that have different meanings to different people. In your case, pulling up sounds like the player has body control and he intentionally pulled the rim down further for reasons other than safety.

When his momentum is taking him forward that fast, he has to put tension on the rim to get him back to a safe position. In my case, I call that pulling up. If he puts a little too much on it, his body goes up. If I think he's doing it to avoid injury vs. showboating, I'm ok with it.

In my heyday when I got up there now and again, the only way I did what happened in the video was when I pulled myself up and drove my feet up. Otherwise the worst that happens is you dunk, and sway about 30-45 degrees maybe. But parallel to the floor is deliberate. This is from experience, playing, coaching and officiating. He wasn't going THAT fast that his momentum carried him that high. If his momentum was that fast you have a better chance of him being pulled off the rim and hitting the deck hard.

That was showboating. "Hey look at me, I just sole the ball, and got a fast break dunk so let me put a little extra on it."

This is the type of behavior that as a group officials do a real crappy job of addressing. Especially when coaches, the FED, assignors, instructors, EVERYONE harps that we need to curtail poor sportsmanship.

[wildcatter]

Originally Posted by deecee

What Rich said. The rule allows for a player to hang on the rim to prevent injury. He simply didn't do that. That's as easy a T as I can see. He might as well have slapped the backboard on the way down.

I have no problem disagreeing with a position that is 100% incorrect. I have seen at least 2 similar videos where my HS and college assignors and interpreters have said it's a T. I'll go by their directive and my judgement.

Great. Super helpful. Good to know this position if 100% incorrect, without citing any specific rules, case plays, or similar videos. If the intention of your reply was to antagonize, it was successful.

[wildcatter]

Originally Posted by deecee

In my heyday when I got up there now and again, the only way I did what happened in the video was when I pulled myself up and drove my feet up. Otherwise the worst that happens is you dunk, and sway about 30-45 degrees maybe. But parallel to the floor is deliberate. This is from experience, playing, coaching and officiating. He wasn't going THAT fast that his momentum carried him that high. If his momentum was that fast you have a better chance of him being pulled off the rim and hitting the deck hard.

That was showboating. "Hey look at me, I just sole the ball, and got a fast break dunk so let me put a little extra on it."

All right - that's helpful. I still think he was pulling himself back in part for safety, but if it's exaggerated and unnecessary like you describe - that's a T. Thanks.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

Great. Super helpful. Good to know this position if 100% incorrect, without citing any specific rules, case plays, or similar videos. If the intention of your reply was to antagonize, it was successful.

The only easy T's I've seen in this thread were the #1 & #3 videos in the same post with the Anthony Davis dunk. AremRed's play was not a T to me, so any claim that it is an "easy" T is purely subjective.

[so cal lurker]

It seems to me that the exception has largely swallowed the rule. IIRC, in the dark ages, you couldn't hang, period. So you chose whether or not to dunk knowing you couldn't hold the rim as you did it. It seems (and I could be wrong) that greater tolerance and the idea of protecting oneself came with the "snap back" rims designed to protect backboards. (As I recall, the first generation of safety rims just pulled away and had to be manually reset, and the next generation had the snap-back feature.) When the safety rule first came in, it seems to have been pretty limited in what was permitted, but over time more and more was permitted (less clear danger needed to justify and more gymnastics permitted as part of it). From a non-ref perspective, it seems to me the attitude began as "it better be obvious you're protecting yourself and needed to do what you did" or its a T, and has evolved into "hey, it's a safety rule, so unless I'm sure you're showboating or taunting, I'm not gonna question what you need to do to protect yourself if anyone's around."

But maybe that's just a misperception on my part -- I'd be curious what those who have been doing this for eons think.

[packersowner]

For whats it worth the opposing team coaches thought it should have been called.

To me when the legs start swinging parallel to the body in this situation, a T is warranted and defensible.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

It seems to me that the exception has largely swallowed the rule. IIRC, in the dark ages, you couldn't hang, period. So you chose whether or not to dunk knowing you couldn't hold the rim as you did it. It seems (and I could be wrong) that greater tolerance and the idea of protecting oneself came with the "snap back" rims designed to protect backboards. (As I recall, the first generation of safety rims just pulled away and had to be manually reset, and the next generation had the snap-back feature.) When the safety rule first came in, it seems to have been pretty limited in what was permitted, but over time more and more was permitted (less clear danger needed to justify and more gymnastics permitted as part of it). From a non-ref perspective, it seems to me the attitude began as "it better be obvious you're protecting yourself and needed to do what you did" or its a T, and has evolved into "hey, it's a safety rule, so unless I'm sure you're showboating or taunting, I'm not gonna question what you need to do to protect yourself if anyone's around."

But maybe that's just a misperception on my part -- I'd be curious what those who have been doing this for eons think.

I think your assessment of the evolution of the rule and its enforcement is spot on.

We wouldn't have points of emphasis if rule enforcement didn't tend to evolve. Remember when slapping the backboard was a POI in…2007/2008ish? Lots of Ts called the first couple of years. Players stopped doing it. Now I've noticed they're starting to do it again, and few calls are being made. We all seem quick to say, "I think he might have been trying to block the shot so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt."

Rule evolution is……interesting?


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[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by AremRed

What about this from one of my high school games this year? I'm Slot. https://streamable.com/spzh

Play on...that's nothing.