Couple of scenarios

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

(1) A1 shooting jump shot, which goes in. L whistles and signals a shooting foul; T whistles second calls the shooter for kicking out while shooting and waves off the basket? Is the proper resolution of this the same as a blarge (basket counts, B's ball) or something else.

(2) Battle in the post. Ref calls double foul on A1 and B1. POI, right? Does the shot clock reset?

1. Shooter was fouled in act of shooting. He, a player in control or an airborne shooter, then fouls a defender. The basket cannot count because of the second foul being player control. Shooter will get 2 throws with no players on the lane. Defense gets ball out of bounds after FTs. If last FT good, defense gets to run end line. 4.19.9A

2. In NCAAM if the arrow favors the offense the clock is not reset. If one of the fouls was flagrant it would be reset.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BigCat

1. Shooter was fouled in act of shooting. He, a player in control or an airborne shooter, then fouls a defender. The basket cannot count because of the second foul being player control. Shooter will get 2 throws with no players on the lane. Defense gets ball out of bounds after FTs. If last FT good, defense gets to run end line. 4.19.9A

Not correct for NHFS. Report both, team B gets a throw in on end line. Case Book 4.19.8 C

[deecee]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Not correct for NHFS. Report both, team B gets a throw in on end line. Case Book 4.19.8 C

I would agree here. The caseplay BigCat mentioned had to do with a foul during the shot then AFTER when the player was returning to the floor. This description sounds like they happened at the same time (in the act of shooting).

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Not correct for NHFS. Report both, team B gets a throw in on end line. Case Book 4.19.8 C

Not correct for NFHS. 4.19.9 is the relevant play. In the OP the officials are not making opposite calls on the very same action. There IS a shooting foul by defense and then a PC by offense. This is not a blarge. It is a False Double.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Not correct for NFHS. 4.19.9 is the relevant play. In the OP the officials are not making opposite calls on the very same action. There IS a shooting foul by defense and then a PC by offense. This is not a blarge. It is a False Double.

Two players fouled each other at approximately the same time. Isn't that the definition of a double foul?

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by BigCat

1. Shooter was fouled in act of shooting. He, a player in control or an airborne shooter, then fouls a defender. The basket cannot count because of the second foul being player control. Shooter will get 2 throws with no players on the lane. Defense gets ball out of bounds after FTs. If last FT good, defense gets to run end line. 4.19.9A

A player control foul is a common foul. If this is a double foul, it is not common and therefore cannot be player control. Assuming the ball was in flight when the contact occurred, it's good if it goes and Team B gets the ball. If not, go to arrow.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

A player control foul is a common foul. If this is a double foul, it is not common and therefore cannot be player control. Assuming the ball was in flight when the contact occurred, it's good if it goes and Team B gets the ball. If not, go to arrow.

You are incorrect. BigCat even cited the case play, I just disagree that it's a false double.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by deecee

You are incorrect. BigCat even cited the case play, I just disagree that it's a false double.

+1. I agree, I don't think its a false double either.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by OKREF

+1. I agree, I don't think its a false double either.

I read the OP as the offensive player being fouled and THEN kicking leg out and fouling defense. Similar to 4.19.9. Can it be called a double? sure. "approximately same time etc." If the kick was bad enough to call it could probably even be intentional. I'd have to see it.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by deecee

You are incorrect. BigCat even cited the case play, I just disagree that it's a false double.

What do you think the correct ruling is? I think I may be wrong but why not a false double?

And if you rule a foul by the offense as part of a double foul, it's not a player control foul. Player control fouls are common fouls. Any fouls that's part of a double foul is not a common foul. 4.19.8.C

So, if you're waving off the basket citing a player control foul, this has to be a false double.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

A player control foul is a common foul. If this is a double foul, it is not common and therefore cannot be player control. Assuming the ball was in flight when the contact occurred, it's good if it goes and Team B gets the ball. If not, go to arrow.

If you call it a double foul then what you have above is correct.

[Raymond]

We need a better description of the play, to include the status of the ball and the timing of the 2 fouls.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

We need a better description of the play, to include the status of the ball and the timing of the 2 fouls.

I posted what was described to me about a call that irritates people a year later. In the actual game, apparently, the T "won" -- the basket was cancelled and only the PF was charged.

anyone care to answer (2) from the OP re NFHS rules? (In a game last night, it was POI with the shot clock was reset -- I thought the shot clock should not reset. Though as I write this, I remember that pure NFHS doesn't have a shot clock -- this was in California, which does.)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I posted what was described to me about a call that irritates people a year later. In the actual game, apparently, the T "won" -- the basket was cancelled and only the PF was charged.

anyone care to answer (2) from the OP re NFHS rules? (In a game last night, it was POI with the shot clock was reset -- I thought the shot clock should not reset. Though as I write this, I remember that pure NFHS doesn't have a shot clock -- this was in California, which does.)

There are no NFHS rules for the shot clock, states with the shot clock each have there own rules. What one state does may be different than another state.

In NCAA the shot clock does not reset.

[Camron Rust]

If I have read the play right, this is NOT the traditional blarge. A blarge is one point of contact judged differently by two officials. This one iis two different actions observed by two officials while the ball remains live. If the time span is close enough, it could be considered a double foul. That would mean the shot would count and the defense would get the ball. If they were noticeably separated, I'd treat them as two fouls....a false double foul. Order of occurance... No basket (PC). Shooter gets to shots. Defense gets the ball.