Kickball Arrow Question

[Cole4088]

Team A and Team B get a jumpball called. It's Team A's arrow. Team A throws the ball in Team B kicks the ball. Kickball violation called. Team A then throws the ball in again. Do they lose the arrow? Can't find it fella's.

[Adam]

The throw in never ended, since a defensive violation occurred during the throw in.

[Cole4088]

Questioning official would like to known: Even after the next throw in that the arrow still stays with Team A. His belief is that Tea A still gets their throw in so it should switch. *I post questions from some buddies of mine as well as questions from me if we cannot find it*

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cole4088

Questioning official would like to known: Even after the next throw in that the arrow still stays with Team A. His belief is that Tea A still gets their throw in so it should switch. *I post questions from some buddies of mine as well as questions from me if we cannot find it*

The NFHS rule is that the team is entitled to an entire throw in from the arrow. If the throw in is cut short by a defensive violation (or a foul by either team), the arrow will not switch because the ensuing throw in is not a result of the arrow.

It's similar to the following scenario, even though in your case the throw in had not even begun:
Held ball called, A's ball with the arrow, then just before the throw in is administered B's coach earns himself a technical foul.

A gets the shots and the ball, and the arrow does not change.

[bas2456]

Think of it this way...

Team A is entitled to a throw in because of...a held ball and the arrow pointing their direction.

Team B violates during the throw in, meaning the throw in never ends (true whether it's an AP throw in or not) so the arrow can't switch.

Team A now has a throw in because of the violation, not because of the arrow. The arrow still points toward A because the AP throw in never ended.

I hope I explained that well enough. That line of thinking is what helps me.

[Cole4088]

This bring me to this question... Say Team A is throwing AP throw in. Team B goes to intercept but bobbles it and Team A player plows him over in a common foul way. Does Team A keep the arrow? I'm assuming so since no possession was established.

[DrPete]

In MTD's scenario, the AP arrow does change because there was a violation by the team throwing the ball in. A violation by the throw in team is the only way they can lose the arrow. A violation by the defense, or a foul on either team does not cause the arrow to change. Violations by the throw in team can include a kicked ball, taking longer than 5 seconds to release the ball, stepping over the line, moving along the end line when it is a designated spot throw in, and probably others that I can't think of.


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[Dad]

Originally Posted by DrPete

In MTD's scenario, the AP arrow does change because there was a violation by the team throwing the ball in. A violation by the throw in team is the only way they can lose the arrow. A violation by the defense, or a foul on either team does not cause the arrow to change. Violations by the throw in team can include a kicked ball, taking longer than 5 seconds to release the ball, stepping over the line, moving along the end line when it is a designated spot throw in, and probably others that I can't think of.


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Why is a kicked ball a throw-in violation which would change the arrow if it's by the throw-in team?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dad

Why is a kicked ball a throw-in violation which would change the arrow if it's by the throw-in team?

It isn't. It isn't only "throw-in violations" that affect this play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dad

Why is a kicked ball a throw-in violation which would change the arrow if it's by the throw-in team?

Because any violation by the throwing team during a throw-in ends the throw-in and causes the team to lose the arrow if it was an AP throw-in. Simple rule.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Because any violation by the throwing team during a throw-in ends the throw-in and causes the team to lose the arrow if it was an AP throw-in. Simple rule.

I asked to make DrP think a bit more about it. It's by no means a difficult rule, but I wouldn't call it a simple rule. I've seen several officials get tripped up by:

The throw-in ends when: The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation

Also, the violation list doesn't say legally touched, it says touched.

The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player on the court before going out of bounds untouched

So we have the rule, then the violation. How exactly is this simple to say a kick ball by the throw-in team reverses the arrow?

[Adam]

Would be a lot simpler my way.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by DrPete

In MTD's scenario, the AP arrow does change because there was a violation by the team throwing the ball in. A violation by the throw in team is the only way they can lose the arrow. A violation by the defense, or a foul on either team does not cause the arrow to change. Violations by the throw in team can include a kicked ball, taking longer than 5 seconds to release the ball, stepping over the line, moving along the end line when it is a designated spot throw in, and probably others that I can't think of.


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Strike the ball with a fist, cause it to enter the basket without being touched, have the ball become lodged between the ring, flange, and backboard, have the ball come to rest on the flange, pass the ball such that a teammate touches it while it is still outside of the boundary plane, hand the ball in to a teammate, pass the ball such that it does not directly enter the court, have a teammate be out of bounds after the throw-in begins, and pass the ball such that it goes OOB without being touched.

Those are some more which I can think of at the moment.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

DrPete is our winner and if I had a box of fine Cuban cigars I would award it to him!

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Thank you to all of those that provided explanations as to why his answer was correct. Have a great evening of games everybody.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by DrPete

In MTD's scenario, the AP arrow does change because there was a violation by the team throwing the ball in. A violation by the throw in team is the only way they can lose the arrow. A violation by the defense, or a foul on either team does not cause the arrow to change. Violations by the throw in team can include a kicked ball, taking longer than 5 seconds to release the ball, stepping over the line, moving along the end line when it is a designated spot throw in, and probably others that I can't think of.


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More simply stated, any violation by the throw-in team ends the throw-in, thus the AP arrow is switched.