To T or not to T; that is the question?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

You're going to have to if it's the second delay-of-game warning. The spirit of the rule is stay in your bloody coaching box. They didn't write the box rule for us to determine when we should and shouldn't enforce it.

There's no inadvertent whistle. No one said TO. No player thinks there is a TO. There's zero confusion for me to give this coach any room to leave the coaching box.

So do you hit him up if he's standing just outside the box?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Adam

So do you hit him up if he's standing just outside the box? Honestly, around here this isn't much of an issue and I don't pay enough attention to coaches to see if there foot is on the line. If I can tell I make it clear I would really appreciate if they'd stay in the box because I don't want to have to call a stupid technical. I've also never called one, but that's not to say one wasn't called on a game I was on.


No, it says he's acting as if there's a timeout AND mildly celebrating the made basket. He's not out high fiving his shooter, he thought there was a TO.

If the other coach asks, I'll give him the "I'd do the same for you" and add that if he had interfered with play, I would have called it. His confusion over there being a TO doesn't justify anything for me. What confusion? There was none from what I read in the OP. Now if he asked for a TO and my partner said okay and didn't blow his whistle that's different. Here the coach is just being dumb and that's not reason enough for me to pass.

Th

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

Honestly, around here this isn't much of an issue and I don't pay enough attention to coaches to see if there foot is on the line. If I can tell I make it clear I would really appreciate if they'd stay in the box because I don't want to have to call a stupid technical. I've also never called one, but that's not to say one wasn't called on a game I was on.

His confusion over there being a TO doesn't justify anything for me. What confusion? There was none from what I read in the OP. Now if he asked for a TO and my partner said okay and didn't blow his whistle that's different. Here the coach is just being dumb and that's not reason enough for me to pass..

I'm not really talking about a coach with a foot on the line. I'm talking about a coach who's got both feet outside the coaching box; approaching either the end line or the table. Maybe he's three feet outside the box, but still out of bounds. Are you going to call this T or are you going to warn him first?

There's no rule basis for handling this any differently than you'd handle the OP. I don't care "why" he might be confused. If it's obvious to me that he's behaving as if there was a timeout called, I'll assume he was confused. The coach is just being dumb and that's not reason enough for me to ring him up. Now, if this was his second offense, you can disregard. If he'd had any issues with me at all, disregard.

He's not coaching, he's not arguing, he's not doing anything but making a (big) mistake. But I'm also not going to disparage an official who'd make the call. I'd back that call 100% as a partner without hesitation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by frezer11

I tend to agree with Adam. If this is clearly a miscommunication by the coach, I'm going to try to avoid a T (unless, of course, he does interfere with the play). I would also look at the spirit of the rule. I know this isn't a directly applicable analogy, but I liken it to the kid who takes the ball out of bounds after his team scores, but is clearly confused on the play. I'm not giving one there unless I have to, and I'm not giving one here unless I have to.

Originally Posted by Dad

You're going to have to if it's the second delay-of-game warning. The spirit of the rule is stay in your bloody coaching box. They didn't write the box rule for us to determine when we should and shouldn't enforce it.
There's no inadvertent whistle. No one said TO. No player thinks there is a TO. There's zero confusion for me to give this coach any room to leave the coaching box.

That's not you responding to a post by stating a 2nd DOG warning and T is needed for this situation?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That's not you responding to a post by stating a 2nd DOG warning and T is needed for this situation?

I know this isn't a directly applicable analogy, but I liken it to the kid who takes the ball out of bounds after his team scores, but is clearly confused on the play. I'm not giving one there unless I have to, and I'm not giving one here unless I have to.

If you're referring to the OP, not in the slightest.

The bold section was what I originally responded to from Frezer. My point is by rule the confused kid doesn't get a technical unless it's the 2nd DOG in the game. At which point you're forced to give a technical -- doesn't matter if you don't want to give it to him or not. (This part is only about the case book play)

The rules don't say anything about giving a coach a warning. Therefore, a T is the only option if he runs out of the box. I don't think it's a good idea to teach officials to put aside rules because they judged spirit and intent. Top officials in most associations can make this call no problem, but on average officials will screw it up and get into trouble.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Dad

Top officials in most associations can make this call no problem, but on average officials will screw it up and get into trouble.

This is absurd. You don't know what top officials do in any other place than where you've officiated.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is absurd. You don't know what top officials do in any other place than where you've officiated.

I do, but apparently you may not.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Dad

The rules don't say anything about giving a coach a warning.

Here's a shocker for you - we also give coaches official warnings. Put 'em in the book and everything.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Here's a shocker for you - we also give coaches official warnings. Put 'em in the book and everything.

Why would this be a shocker? Lots of associations do this.

I'm only playing the rule side of the conversation. In this scenario I think he ran too far onto the court for me to give a warning. Plenty of great officials who would pass on a T and it'd be a good decision; it's just not one I'm likely to make.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Here's a shocker for you - we also give coaches official warnings. Put 'em in the book and everything.

I was sitting at a table (no visiting scorer) watching a game after mine (holiday tournament) when an official did this. I did everything I could to keep my eyes from visibly and audibly rolling.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Rich

I was sitting at a table (no visiting scorer) watching a game after mine (holiday tournament) when an official did this. I did everything I could to keep my eyes from visibly and audibly rolling.

The first time I saw someone give an "official warning" after I moved here, I thought they were joking.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Smitty

The first time I saw someone give an "official warning" after I moved here, I thought they were joking.

I have a supervisor or 2 who insist on this procedure.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Dad

Top officials in most associations can make this call no problem, but on average officials will screw it up and get into trouble.

Originally Posted by Dad

Why would this be a shocker? Lots of associations do this.

How is it you know about what most associations do?

[Mark Padgett]

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dad

If you're referring to the OP, not in the slightest.

The bold section was what I originally responded to from Frezer. My point is by rule the confused kid doesn't get a technical unless it's the 2nd DOG in the game. At which point you're forced to give a technical -- doesn't matter if you don't want to give it to him or not. (This part is only about the case book play)

The rules don't say anything about giving a coach a warning. Therefore, a T is the only option if he runs out of the box. I don't think it's a good idea to teach officials to put aside rules because they judged spirit and intent. Top officials in most associations can make this call no problem, but on average officials will screw it up and get into trouble.

I think you should probably hesitate before judging the quality of officials who would refrain from calling a T in the OP.

In the case play you posted, the point was that an immediate and direct T is not assessed because the player was confused. The rule is different, in that if the officials judge action to be intentional and deliberate, a T is in order with or without a previous DOG warning on record. With confusion, a DOG is sufficient.

The OP does not allow for a DOG. It's a T or nothing. Many would do each. That's ok. I know there are some "top officials" from several associations here who have stated they would refrain in that specific situation.

I'm not including myself here. I can tell you, however, that the response from my association if I were to call a T in the OP would be to publicly back my call if I made it, but any of the top officials observing my game would ask me privately if I could have maybe held off on it.