Leaving floor and starting dribble

[Shooter14]

Is that supported by rule in the rulebook? What is the rule for "pivot"? I am just having trouble finding anything in the book that says "pivot" can mean both feet simultaneously.

Is there any where in the rule or case book that says both feet can be considered the pivot foot?

[Shooter14]

And again I agree it's a travel. But tough to convince my partners otherwise unless I can find better wording in the rule book.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

And again I agree it's a travel. But tough to convince my partners otherwise unless I can find better wording in the rule book.

A quick reading of 4-44-art3b explicitly says their scenario is a travel.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Is that supported by rule in the rulebook? What is the rule for "pivot"? I am just having trouble finding anything in the book that says "pivot" can mean both feet simultaneously.

Is there any where in the rule or case book that says both feet can be considered the pivot foot?

"If the player catches the ball with both feet on the floor, either can be the pivot." (or words to that effect)

So if the player jumps (and then starts a dribble), he's travelled twice.

Heck, there is a case play where *neither* foot can be the pivot, but travelling is called. Sorry that I don't have my books handy for a reference.

[Shooter14]

Ok I borrowed a book from my administrator.

Rule 4-44 Art 3b says:

"After coming to a stop AND ESTABLISHING A PIVOT FOOT, If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try"

The definition of a pivot "A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball STEPS ONCE, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor"

Again, my case is when a player catches and shoots without establishing a pivot foot. No where in the rule book can I find anything that says "both feet are the pivot" and no where in the casebook do I find this exact play. I do find similar plays in the casebook that says "A PIVOT FOOT IS ESTABLISHED" but nothing about straight up catch and shoot without establishing.

Again, I agree it's a travel, but it's impossible for me to convince my partners of that based on the ruling.

No case play in this year's case anyway, and the rule book says what I mentioned above.

[Shooter14]

I wish I could find wording in the book somewhere that says both feet can be the pivot foot, but I just can not find anything. I want to be able to justify why this is a travel but the book's wording doesn't help much.

[bob jenkins]

1997 Interps:

SITUATION #7: Al receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he or she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. Al then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, Al drops the ball to the floor and dribbles.
RULING: Al has traveled as one foot must be considered to be a pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling. (4-42-3c)

[deecee]

It doesn't have to be explicitly spelled out. Every scenario covers that one foot OR the other is the pivot. BOTH feet cannot be the pivot. You, and maybe your partners, are making this more complicated than it is.

[Shooter14]

No, I am agreeing with the interpretation, but I'm trying to find a way to explain to them why it should be a travel based on the rulebook. I need something directly from the book. When it says "after establishing a pivot foot" it makes it hard to explain why it still is a travel. It's frustrating for me, trust me!

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

I wish I could find wording in the book somewhere that says both feet can be the pivot foot, but I just can not find anything. I want to be able to justify why this is a travel but the book's wording doesn't help much.

Your situation is addressed by rule 4-44-1. It deals with starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. If the player jumps, one of the feet must be considered the pivot.

ART. 1

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:

A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.


See caseplay : 4.44.3 SITUATION A:

A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1's hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and *subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

[Shooter14]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Your situation is addressed by rule 4-44-1. It deals with starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. If the player jumps, one of the feet must be considered the pivot.

ART. 1

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:

A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.


See caseplay : 4.44.3 SITUATION A:

A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1's hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and *subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

OK thanks! I will try and explain this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Shooter14

Ok I borrowed a book from my administrator.

Rule 4-44 Art 3b says:

"After coming to a stop AND ESTABLISHING A PIVOT FOOT, If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try"

The definition of a pivot "A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball STEPS ONCE, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor"

Again, my case is when a player catches and shoots without establishing a pivot foot. No where in the rule book can I find anything that says "both feet are the pivot" and no where in the casebook do I find this exact play. I do find similar plays in the casebook that says "A PIVOT FOOT IS ESTABLISHED" but nothing about straight up catch and shoot without establishing.

Again, I agree it's a travel, but it's impossible for me to convince my partners of that based on the ruling.

No case play in this year's case anyway, and the rule book says what I mentioned above.

Bob posted the old interp from 1997. Your buddies are latching on to a loophole that would provide an advantage not intended by the rules. This is a travel by intent, as expressed in the old interpretation.