Bonus not double bonus

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

I read the OP wrong. In this case I wouldn't put 2.9 seconds back on but I would probably put 2.5 as stated earlier since the ball would be dead on the rebound due to inactivity by one team.

Got a rule to support that claim?

Again the Case Book clearly says that the officials need to whistle the play dead. I think that I'll go with what's written in the NFHS book. That seems like common sense.

PS What about the play in which A3 rebounds and scores prior to any whistle? Are you claiming that was a dead ball on the rebound too?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Got a rule to support that claim?

Again the Case Book clearly says that the officials need to whistle the play dead. I think that I'll go with what's written in the NFHS book. That seems like common sense.

PS What about the play in which A3 rebounds and scores prior to any whistle? Are you claiming that was a dead ball on the rebound too?

There is a case study on officials screwing up 1&1 vs 2 and how the players react on the rebound.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Dad

There is a case study on officials screwing up 1&1 vs 2 and how the players react on the rebound.

It's 8.6.1 But it doesn't say anything about putting time back on the clock.

SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one and one free throw situation. The administrating official steps in and erroneously informs players that two free throws will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed free throw is rebound by; (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2 with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the officials error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be ruled dead immediately and resumed using the AP procedure. In (c), both teams made and attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.

However rule

5.10.2 art 1...The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the time to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
5.10.2 art 2...If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an officials count or other official information may be used to make correction.

I don't think its a reach to say we could stop the play if only one team plays the ball and put the time back on the clock, if the officials knew what was on the clock when the free throw took place.

[frezer11]

The only way I can figure that you could POSSIBLY put time back on the clock is if you claim that the whistle was blown when the ball was first touched on the rebound. But not only is this not true in the OP, but it would almost never be true, as the recognition that not both teams reacted takes at least some amount of process time. I don't see how you could justify putting time back on the clock other than, "It just seems like the right thing to do." Unfortunately, sometimes when officials screw up it costs teams. That's why we work so hard at not doing that.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by frezer11

The only way I can figure that you could POSSIBLY put time back on the clock is if you claim that the whistle was blown when the ball was first touched on the rebound. But not only is this not true in the OP, but it would almost never be true, as the recognition that not both teams reacted takes at least some amount of process time. I don't see how you could justify putting time back on the clock other than, "It just seems like the right thing to do." Unfortunately, sometimes when officials screw up it costs teams. That's why we work so hard at not doing that.

Three seconds left in the game and you, in error, call 2 shots instead of a 1&1. Home is up by one point and is on the line. H1 misses shot and H2 is the only player who runs in for the rebound and gets the ball. Official brain farts, chops the clock, then blows his whistle after three seconds to correct the situation.

When my assigner calls me to chew me out on how I let my crew do this I'd rather have been the crew that put time on the clock. I'm sure it's different for other assigners, but I could see losing my varsity schedule for being the one to brain fart and then not putting time on the clock. I'm in trouble either way, but I'd pick put time on the clock.

[johnny d]

I think it is pretty clear, using article 5, that time should not be put back on the clock. And I quote, "Points scored, consumed time, and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified."

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I think it is pretty clear, using article 5, that time should not be put back on the clock. And I quote, "Points scored, consumed time, and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified."

But we aren't discussing a correctable error here as defined in the rules to which that provision applies.

Interesting discussion - thanks all. And I guess this is another example of how there isn't necessarily a satisfactory answer when there is an officiating error. (Fortunately in my son's game it just didn't matter as only divine intervention or a bizarre technical foul could have given them a chance to win at that point.)

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I think it is pretty clear, using article 5, that time should not be put back on the clock. And I quote, "Points scored, consumed time, and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified."

Was an unmerited free throw awarded? I don't think so, the second unmerited free throw never happened. The officials provided the wrong information. I don't believe this is a CE situation.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Dad

Three seconds left in the game and you, in error, call 2 shots instead of a 1&1. Home is up by one point and is on the line. H1 misses shot and H2 is the only player who runs in for the rebound and gets the ball. Official brain farts, chops the clock, then blows his whistle after three seconds to correct the situation.

When my assigner calls me to chew me out on how I let my crew do this I'd rather have been the crew that put time on the clock. I'm sure it's different for other assigners, but I could see losing my varsity schedule for being the one to brain fart and then not putting time on the clock. I'm in trouble either way, but I'd pick put time on the clock.

So your assignor would rather have you screw up twice (awarding 2 shots instead of 1 and 1, and putting time back on the clock) rather than once (awarding 2 shots instead of 1 and 1) and then handling the situation by the rules because it seems more fair? He wont be the assignor long, since he, like the officials that handle the situation by putting time back on the clock, have absolutely no rules backing to do so.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by johnny d

So your assignor would rather have you screw up twice (awarding 2 shots instead of 1 and 1, and putting time back on the clock) rather than once (awarding 2 shots instead of 1 and 1) and then handling the situation by the rules because it seems more fair? He wont be the assignor long, since he, like the officials that handle the situation by putting time back on the clock, have absolutely no rules backing to do so.

It's not that simple, imo.

He's the top assigner in the state and is a big timer with NFHS. I said what I would do in the situation I gave to attempt to fix screwing up the entire game. Is it a good choice? Ehh, idk, but I'm screwed anyway.

If I muck up a call this bad and it's a deciding factor in who wins the game -- goodbye schedule. We don't get to royally screw up a game around here and continue to officiate at a high level. At least for any given year, and yes some good collegiate officials have lost their HS schedules mucking up a game.

I royally mucked up a HS game once so far. I fixed it not following the rules so I wouldn't decide the game. I was fine with my decision and understood I'd be getting freshman games the rest of the year. Personally, I'd rather be punished for fixing my oops with missing two rules than I would being punished for one and deciding the game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by frezer11

The only way I can figure that you could POSSIBLY put time back on the clock is if you claim that the whistle was blown when the ball was first touched on the rebound. But not only is this not true in the OP, but it would almost never be true, as the recognition that not both teams reacted takes at least some amount of process time.....

I recognize it immediately upon the release of the free throw. During that time frame the clock is not running. So, yes, it is possible to kill the play without any time coming off the clock.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I recognize it immediately upon the release of the free throw. During that time frame the clock is not running. So, yes, it is possible to kill the play without any time coming off the clock.

Well if you recognized it before the release, why in the world would you let it get this far? If you heard your partner say 2 when it was really a 1-1, stop the action then, correct the issue, then re-administer properly.

The OP said or implied that the error was not recognized until the teams failed to go for the rebound.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by frezer11

Well if you recognized it before the release, why in the world would you let it get this far? If you heard your partner say 2 when it was really a 1-1, stop the action then, correct the issue, then re-administer properly.

The OP said or implied that the error was not recognized until the teams failed to go for the rebound.

And when do players start going for the rebound?

[Dad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

It's 8.6.1 But it doesn't say anything about putting time back on the clock.

SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one and one free throw situation. The administrating official steps in and erroneously informs players that two free throws will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed free throw is rebound by; (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2 with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the officials error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be ruled dead immediately and resumed using the AP procedure. In (c), both teams made and attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.

However rule

5.9.2 art 1...The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the time to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
5.9.2 art 2...If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an officials count or other official information may be used to make correction.

I don't think its a reach to say we could stop the play if only one team plays the ball and put the time back on the clock, if the officials knew what was on the clock when the free throw took place.

Thanks for posting the case.

Bold text: Ideally the officials rule it dead immediately. If that doesn't happen and seconds run off the clock I agree with you it's not a reach.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by OKREF

It's 8.6.1 But it doesn't say anything about putting time back on the clock.

SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one and one free throw situation. The administrating official steps in and erroneously informs players that two free throws will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed free throw is rebound by; (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2 with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the officials error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be ruled dead immediately and resumed using the AP procedure. In (c), both teams made and attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.

However rule

5.9.2 art 1...The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the time to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
5.9.2 art 2...If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an officials count or other official information may be used to make correction.

I don't think its a reach to say we could stop the play if only one team plays the ball and put the time back on the clock, if the officials knew what was on the clock when the free throw took place.

Your reference to 5.9.2 art 1, is actually Rule Book 5-10-1, and refers only to ". . . a mistake made by the timer . . ." In the situation being discussed, the mistake is by the officials, and not by the timer.
5-9-1 allows the timer to start the clock, ". . . if the official neglects to signal . . ."