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Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975955)
Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

If you are using "pivot" in the same manner as the NFHS definition in Rule 4, then you are correct that such action would be illegal.

If you simply mean to turn or twist on the non-pivot foot, then that is different and not illegal as long as the pivot foot doesn't return to the floor.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 975993)
I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet."

Right. In other words, you can only pivot on the pivot foot, and you only get one of those.

Here's a case book citation.
Quote:

NFHS 4.44.2A: Dribbler A1 catches the ball with the right foot touching the floor and then jumps off that foot an alights on both feet simultaneously... RULING: ... it is a violation if A1 pivots on either foot.
Therefore, if you pivot on a non-pivot foot, that's travelling. Where this typically applies in a spin move is that the ball handler pivots on his pivot foot, then pivots on the non-pivot foot.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:50pm

Bainsey,
I'm confused by your answer. Please state whether you believe that a player can do this or not:
============================================
Originally Posted by frezer11 https://forum.officiating.com/images...s/viewpost.gif
I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet."
=============================================

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976006)
Bainsey,
I'm confused by your answer. Please state whether you believe that a player can do this or not:
============================================
Originally Posted by frezer11 https://forum.officiating.com/images...s/viewpost.gif
I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet."
=============================================

That sounds to me like a pivot on a non-pivot foot, so NO.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976008)
That sounds to me like a pivot on a non-pivot foot, so NO.

Okay, you have an incorrect understanding.
There is nothing wrong with twisting or turning the non-pivot foot while the other foot remains in the air.

The definition of pivot was provided by Camron and involves stepping with the other foot while one foot is kept in contact with the floor. That would be illegal when done with the non-pivot foot as the other foot would touch the floor again by definition.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:14pm

There was a game-winning basket made in the NCAA tournament a few years ago by Georgetown's Jeff Green against Vanderbilt in this exact manner. Please do an Internet search for the video.

We had a fairly extensive thread on the play on this forum as the TV announcers initially incorrectly screamed for a travel. The NCAA announced that the move was perfectly legal.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976012)
Okay, you have an incorrect understanding.
There is nothing wrong with twisting or turning the non-pivot foot while the other foot remains in the air.

NFHS citation, please?

Quote:

There was a game-winning basket made in the NCAA tournament a few years ago by Georgetown's Jeff Green against Vanderbilt in this exact manner. Please do an Internet search for the video.
If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976017)
NFHS citation, please?


If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

Other than the NFHS defintion of traveling, I don't know what you want me to provide. Traveling has nothing to do with twisting or turning. It only involves illegally lifting the pivot (before starting a dribble) and putting it back down while holding the ball.

Yes, the 2007 game was the one. I do not know of any difference in the NCAAM traveling rule from the NFHS rule.

Here are two threads we had on that situation:
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...diots-too.html

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...-incident.html

TimTaylor Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

see 4.44.3.a & 4.44.3.b

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976020)
Traveling has nothing to do with twisting or turning. It only involves illegally lifting the pivot (before starting a dribble) and putting it back down while holding the ball.

Not exclusively. See the case book play I cited earlier.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976030)
Not exclusively. See the case book play I cited earlier.

Still incorrect.

"NFHS 4.44.2A: Dribbler A1 catches the ball with the right foot touching the floor and then jumps off that foot an alights on both feet simultaneously... RULING: ... it is a violation if A1 pivots on either foot."

In this case book play which you cited, after completing this jumpstop A1 may still jump in order to pass or shoot. A1 can certainly lift either foot, he just can't put it back down.

TimTaylor Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976030)
Not exclusively. See the case book play I cited earlier.

The sit. you cited refers specifically to when a player may or may not pivot relative to a jump stop when receiving a pass.

See the definition of pivot from 4.33 that Camron cited:

A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor.

To "step" you must pick up a foot and put it back down.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976033)
In this case book play which you cited, after completing this jumpstop A1 may still jump in order to pass or shoot. A1 can certainly lift either foot, he just can't put it back down.

Not arguing that, but that's not the sole definition of travelling.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976036)
Not arguing that, but that's not the sole definition of travelling.

I provided the NFHS definition for a standing player holding the ball with the exception of one who falls to the floor (NFHS definition is touching with other than a hand or foot). Otherwise NFHS traveling only covers a player who secures control while already on the floor, but that wasn't relevant to your situation or questions about a pivot.

Raymond Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976017)
NFHS citation, please?


If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

What's different about the traveling rule in regards to the play being discussed?


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