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MechanicGuy Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:02am

I honestly don't know how you've managed to misunderstand such a simple rule, so badly.

Again, a PIVOT FOOT, as it pertains to the rulebook, is a different use of the word PIVOT than in the action of PIVOTING.

The travel rules are, in their wording, quite simple. They are also the most missed call in the game, but I can't say I've ever seen it missed in this manner or with this reasoning.

JRutledge Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976017)
If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

The travel rule in NCAA is almost identical and identical in practice as the NF rule. And the NCAA puts out videos often to show plays that should be called on a regular basis.

Peace

OKREF Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?


Both feet on floor, player facing basket. Picks up left foot and places it back down, lifts right foot, and spins 360 degrees with left foot staying in contact with the floor and releases ball before right foot returns to floor. Is this what you are talking about? Legal.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 11, 2016 01:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy (Post 976053)
I honestly don't know how you've managed to misunderstand such a simple rule, so badly.

Again, a PIVOT FOOT, as it pertains to the rulebook, is a different use of the word PIVOT than in the action of PIVOTING.

The travel rules are, in their wording, quite simple. They are also the most missed call in the game, but I can't say I've ever seen it missed in this manner or with this reasoning.

The difficulty is that he has held a mistaken belief for several years and is now faced with accepting that it is wrong. That is jarring for most people.

I'm certain that he is finding this thread to be eye-opening.

Dad Mon Jan 11, 2016 02:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

With this line of thinking you better be calling a travel on 99% of plays. Show me a player who doesn't move their pivot foot 1 degree before passing/shooting/dribbling.

Camron Rust Mon Jan 11, 2016 03:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

Not considering the cases of a player falling down or a player starting a dribble, travels ALWAYS occur when a foot comes back down....ALWAYS.

BigCat Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976004)
Right. In other words, you can only pivot on the pivot foot, and you only get one of those.

Here's a case book citation.


Therefore, if you pivot on a non-pivot foot, that's travelling. Where this typically applies in a spin move is that the ball handler pivots on his pivot foot, then pivots on the non-pivot foot.

Bainsey,

A player holding the ball picks up his left foot and right stays at point of contact on floor. The right foot becomes the PIVOT FOOT.

--The definition of pivot 4-33--player holding the ball STEPS once or more than once….with the same foot while the other foot called the "pivot foot" is kept at its point of contact with the floor. A player only has ONE pivot foot. The word STEPS (verb) is to lift foot and place it down.

So when the player lifts the left foot with the right remaining on the floor, the right is the pivot foot. When the player actually puts the left foot on the floor (a step) he has PIVOTED. Now the player lifts the right foot (PIVOT FOOT) and is standing on his left foot. That left foot is NOT a pivot foot. There is only one pivot foot, the right. Also, even if it were a pivot foot, it is not a pivot until the other foot hits the floor. Twisting on one foot while the other stays in the air is not, by definition, a pivot.

In my example the left foot..is just a foot. Player standing only on that foot must pass or shoot--can jump also but can't return either foot to floor. The PLAYER LOCATION rule says player is located where he is in contact with floor. The player can spin or twist on that left foot provided he remains in contact with floor at that location. If he starts twisting his way down the court on one leg he is doing more than passing or shooting.

bainsey Mon Jan 11, 2016 05:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad (Post 976068)
With this line of thinking you better be calling a travel on 99% of plays. Show me a player who doesn't move their pivot foot 1 degree before passing/shooting/dribbling.

That's not where my head was. Turning the pivot foot is fine. I had it in my head that turning the non-pivot foot was not, and that a pivot was a mere turn (more of a dictionary definition than rule book). I had the pivot rule only applying to the pivot foot.

Thanks for the heads up, crew.

Adam Mon Jan 11, 2016 05:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976067)
The difficulty is that he has held a mistaken belief for several years and is now faced with accepting that it is wrong. That is jarring for most people.

I'm certain that he is finding this thread to be eye-opening.

Yep. It's tough to admit, but Bainey's good people.


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