The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Spin move (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/100656-spin-move.html)

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:19am

Spin move
 
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

packersowner Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

I am confused on what you are trying to say. You can do a lot of things when you lift your pivot.....is that your point?

MechanicGuy Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

Assuming the lifting of the pivot foot isn't followed by a dribble, you can do whatever you want with it

Assuming you accurately described the play, I'm thinking the call was missed.

JetMetFan Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:54am

Maybe I'm missing something but the way this is described (remove the spin part of things): the dribble ended with the pivot foot on the floor, the other foot came down, the pivot foot was lifted but never came down again...that's legal.

As to this comment...

Quote:

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot,"
...if the rule book doesn't say a player can't do it, why can't they?

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 975950)
I am confused on what you are trying to say. You can do a lot of things when you lift your pivot.....is that your point?

Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

MechanicGuy Sun Jan 10, 2016 01:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975955)
Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

Because you can?

It sounds like you need to separate the term "pivot foot" and the act of "pivoting" in your own mind. They aren't necessarily related.

Camron Rust Sun Jan 10, 2016 01:45am

I've seen many officials think it is a pivot to lift a foot and swing it around before it touches. As a result, I hear calls for travels and see a few officials call travels when it is not (yet). It isn't a pivot until the lifted foot touches again.

deecee Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975955)
Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

because you can. the rule doesn't prohibit this, the rule prohibits the original pivot foot from being returned to the floor before the ball is passed or shot.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 975959)
It isn't a pivot until the lifted foot touches again.

I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

bob jenkins Sun Jan 10, 2016 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

4-travel contains multiple references to "the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor (before a pass or shot)."

Sorry, I don't have the books here to give an exact cite.

Aldo, when the rule says "traveling is moving the pivot foot" "move" means step or slide -- id doesn't mean "wave around in the air."

BryanV21 Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:45pm

Some are making it more complicated than it needs to be. Actually, it's not complicated.

1. Find the pivot foot, keeping in mind there is only one pivot foot There's no such thing as the "first" and "second" pivot foot (at least not in high school).

2. If the pivot foot is lifted, the player is allowed to shoot or pass the ball. They can not start a dribble or return the pivot foot to the floor (if so, a travel violation has occurred).

That's it. The way I read the OP tells me there was no traveling violation. I don't care what the coach says, I only care what the rule book says.

VaTerp Sun Jan 10, 2016 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Why does it matter what he did with his "non-pivot foot." Add me to the group that does not think what is descibed here is a travel.

Quote:

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?
I'm confused. What point are people missing? What limits are you referencing as clear?

BillyMac Sun Jan 10, 2016 03:36pm

Legal ...
 
Imagine a dribbler ending his dribble, and establishing a pivot foot. He picks up that pivot foot to pass, or to shoot, and while said pivot foot is in the air, decides to do neither. He just stands there with his nonpivot foot on the floor, and his pivot foot in the air, holding the ball. If not closely guarded, or not in the backcourt, or not in the lane, he can stand there, legally, like a statue, for up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds.

frezer11 Sun Jan 10, 2016 03:39pm

I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet." This meets the non-basketball definition of pivot, but is confused with the basketball term "pivot foot." Seems to me this is a discussion that has been had on this forum before, I know I've had the talk with others in my area. Am I correct in assuming this is where your confusion is bainsey?

Camron Rust Sun Jan 10, 2016 05:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?


Rule 4, Section 33:
Quote:

A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975955)
Okay, to be more clear, why do people think you can pivot on a non-pivot foot?

If you are using "pivot" in the same manner as the NFHS definition in Rule 4, then you are correct that such action would be illegal.

If you simply mean to turn or twist on the non-pivot foot, then that is different and not illegal as long as the pivot foot doesn't return to the floor.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 975993)
I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet."

Right. In other words, you can only pivot on the pivot foot, and you only get one of those.

Here's a case book citation.
Quote:

NFHS 4.44.2A: Dribbler A1 catches the ball with the right foot touching the floor and then jumps off that foot an alights on both feet simultaneously... RULING: ... it is a violation if A1 pivots on either foot.
Therefore, if you pivot on a non-pivot foot, that's travelling. Where this typically applies in a spin move is that the ball handler pivots on his pivot foot, then pivots on the non-pivot foot.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:50pm

Bainsey,
I'm confused by your answer. Please state whether you believe that a player can do this or not:
============================================
Originally Posted by frezer11 https://forum.officiating.com/images...s/viewpost.gif
I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet."
=============================================

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 06:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976006)
Bainsey,
I'm confused by your answer. Please state whether you believe that a player can do this or not:
============================================
Originally Posted by frezer11 https://forum.officiating.com/images...s/viewpost.gif
I'm guessing the confusion on this issue is whether the non-pivot foot, while on the ground, and while the originally established pivot foot is in the air, can be rotated on the so-called "balls of the feet."
=============================================

That sounds to me like a pivot on a non-pivot foot, so NO.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976008)
That sounds to me like a pivot on a non-pivot foot, so NO.

Okay, you have an incorrect understanding.
There is nothing wrong with twisting or turning the non-pivot foot while the other foot remains in the air.

The definition of pivot was provided by Camron and involves stepping with the other foot while one foot is kept in contact with the floor. That would be illegal when done with the non-pivot foot as the other foot would touch the floor again by definition.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:14pm

There was a game-winning basket made in the NCAA tournament a few years ago by Georgetown's Jeff Green against Vanderbilt in this exact manner. Please do an Internet search for the video.

We had a fairly extensive thread on the play on this forum as the TV announcers initially incorrectly screamed for a travel. The NCAA announced that the move was perfectly legal.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976012)
Okay, you have an incorrect understanding.
There is nothing wrong with twisting or turning the non-pivot foot while the other foot remains in the air.

NFHS citation, please?

Quote:

There was a game-winning basket made in the NCAA tournament a few years ago by Georgetown's Jeff Green against Vanderbilt in this exact manner. Please do an Internet search for the video.
If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 07:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976017)
NFHS citation, please?


If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

Other than the NFHS defintion of traveling, I don't know what you want me to provide. Traveling has nothing to do with twisting or turning. It only involves illegally lifting the pivot (before starting a dribble) and putting it back down while holding the ball.

Yes, the 2007 game was the one. I do not know of any difference in the NCAAM traveling rule from the NFHS rule.

Here are two threads we had on that situation:
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...diots-too.html

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...-incident.html

TimTaylor Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

see 4.44.3.a & 4.44.3.b

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976020)
Traveling has nothing to do with twisting or turning. It only involves illegally lifting the pivot (before starting a dribble) and putting it back down while holding the ball.

Not exclusively. See the case book play I cited earlier.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976030)
Not exclusively. See the case book play I cited earlier.

Still incorrect.

"NFHS 4.44.2A: Dribbler A1 catches the ball with the right foot touching the floor and then jumps off that foot an alights on both feet simultaneously... RULING: ... it is a violation if A1 pivots on either foot."

In this case book play which you cited, after completing this jumpstop A1 may still jump in order to pass or shoot. A1 can certainly lift either foot, he just can't put it back down.

TimTaylor Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976030)
Not exclusively. See the case book play I cited earlier.

The sit. you cited refers specifically to when a player may or may not pivot relative to a jump stop when receiving a pass.

See the definition of pivot from 4.33 that Camron cited:

A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor.

To "step" you must pick up a foot and put it back down.

bainsey Sun Jan 10, 2016 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976033)
In this case book play which you cited, after completing this jumpstop A1 may still jump in order to pass or shoot. A1 can certainly lift either foot, he just can't put it back down.

Not arguing that, but that's not the sole definition of travelling.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 10, 2016 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976036)
Not arguing that, but that's not the sole definition of travelling.

I provided the NFHS definition for a standing player holding the ball with the exception of one who falls to the floor (NFHS definition is touching with other than a hand or foot). Otherwise NFHS traveling only covers a player who secures control while already on the floor, but that wasn't relevant to your situation or questions about a pivot.

Raymond Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976017)
NFHS citation, please?


If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

What's different about the traveling rule in regards to the play being discussed?

MechanicGuy Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:02am

I honestly don't know how you've managed to misunderstand such a simple rule, so badly.

Again, a PIVOT FOOT, as it pertains to the rulebook, is a different use of the word PIVOT than in the action of PIVOTING.

The travel rules are, in their wording, quite simple. They are also the most missed call in the game, but I can't say I've ever seen it missed in this manner or with this reasoning.

JRutledge Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976017)
If you mean the 2007 regional semi, there was travelling on that play before the initial drive was even made, but that hardly matters. What constitutes a travel in the NCAA is very different than the pockets of Roman Law we deal with in NFHS.

The travel rule in NCAA is almost identical and identical in practice as the NF rule. And the NCAA puts out videos often to show plays that should be called on a regular basis.

Peace

OKREF Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?


Both feet on floor, player facing basket. Picks up left foot and places it back down, lifts right foot, and spins 360 degrees with left foot staying in contact with the floor and releases ball before right foot returns to floor. Is this what you are talking about? Legal.

Nevadaref Mon Jan 11, 2016 01:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy (Post 976053)
I honestly don't know how you've managed to misunderstand such a simple rule, so badly.

Again, a PIVOT FOOT, as it pertains to the rulebook, is a different use of the word PIVOT than in the action of PIVOTING.

The travel rules are, in their wording, quite simple. They are also the most missed call in the game, but I can't say I've ever seen it missed in this manner or with this reasoning.

The difficulty is that he has held a mistaken belief for several years and is now faced with accepting that it is wrong. That is jarring for most people.

I'm certain that he is finding this thread to be eye-opening.

Dad Mon Jan 11, 2016 02:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975945)
Second quarter. A-1 dribbles near the division line, guarded by B-2. Instead of driving past B-2, A-1 attempts this spin move: gather while pivoting on pivot foot, pivots on non-pivot foot, pass. Partner calls the travel.

Coach A, who has been chirping much of the first half, loudly objects, "IT'S A SPIN MOVE!!!," as if that allows the change of the pivot foot. He continues with, "This game is too fast for you!" (It's a freshmen boys' game.) Partner T's up Coach A.

While NFHS 4-44 doesn't specifically say, "you can't pivot on a non-pivot foot," I fail to see how people miss this point. The limits are clear. Is it the belief of some that, as long as the pivot foot doesn't come down, you can do what you want with the other foot? Or what else may be misleading people?

With this line of thinking you better be calling a travel on 99% of plays. Show me a player who doesn't move their pivot foot 1 degree before passing/shooting/dribbling.

Camron Rust Mon Jan 11, 2016 03:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 975964)
I'm assuming you mean, "until the lifted pivot foot touches again." If I assume correctly, can you give me a rule citation?

Not considering the cases of a player falling down or a player starting a dribble, travels ALWAYS occur when a foot comes back down....ALWAYS.

BigCat Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 976004)
Right. In other words, you can only pivot on the pivot foot, and you only get one of those.

Here's a case book citation.


Therefore, if you pivot on a non-pivot foot, that's travelling. Where this typically applies in a spin move is that the ball handler pivots on his pivot foot, then pivots on the non-pivot foot.

Bainsey,

A player holding the ball picks up his left foot and right stays at point of contact on floor. The right foot becomes the PIVOT FOOT.

--The definition of pivot 4-33--player holding the ball STEPS once or more than once….with the same foot while the other foot called the "pivot foot" is kept at its point of contact with the floor. A player only has ONE pivot foot. The word STEPS (verb) is to lift foot and place it down.

So when the player lifts the left foot with the right remaining on the floor, the right is the pivot foot. When the player actually puts the left foot on the floor (a step) he has PIVOTED. Now the player lifts the right foot (PIVOT FOOT) and is standing on his left foot. That left foot is NOT a pivot foot. There is only one pivot foot, the right. Also, even if it were a pivot foot, it is not a pivot until the other foot hits the floor. Twisting on one foot while the other stays in the air is not, by definition, a pivot.

In my example the left foot..is just a foot. Player standing only on that foot must pass or shoot--can jump also but can't return either foot to floor. The PLAYER LOCATION rule says player is located where he is in contact with floor. The player can spin or twist on that left foot provided he remains in contact with floor at that location. If he starts twisting his way down the court on one leg he is doing more than passing or shooting.

bainsey Mon Jan 11, 2016 05:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad (Post 976068)
With this line of thinking you better be calling a travel on 99% of plays. Show me a player who doesn't move their pivot foot 1 degree before passing/shooting/dribbling.

That's not where my head was. Turning the pivot foot is fine. I had it in my head that turning the non-pivot foot was not, and that a pivot was a mere turn (more of a dictionary definition than rule book). I had the pivot rule only applying to the pivot foot.

Thanks for the heads up, crew.

Adam Mon Jan 11, 2016 05:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 976067)
The difficulty is that he has held a mistaken belief for several years and is now faced with accepting that it is wrong. That is jarring for most people.

I'm certain that he is finding this thread to be eye-opening.

Yep. It's tough to admit, but Bainey's good people.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1