I also cannot think straight

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is. In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

How about poor officiating? Seems that we should take away your next game check so as not to improperly reward that.

That is my way of telling you that you are incorrect on this point.

Anytime that the ball unintentionally slips out of a player's grasp, it is a fumble. The art of officiating is discerning if the action was unintentional or done deliberately. Officials are paid to make those judgment calls. What you have stated (that you are just going to penalize the player for bad offense) is lazy and a failure to fulfill one of the basic tenets of officiating--making an honest assessment of the game action.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

Yep, it's judgment. There is nothing in the rule book that shows either side is wrong.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.

The judgment in the play is deciding on what it is you are seeing. Did the ball SLIP out of his hands when the other player went back door or did the player just "let up" on the pass? (The ball didnt slip, bobble etc.) If you determine that the ball slipped out of his hands judgment is over. The rule (fumble definition) says it is a fumble.

Deecee stated earlier that if a player changes his mind on the pass, tries to hold it, but it still "pops out" he is going with the original intent of the player. "Pops out" here means "slips" to me. Original intent can be helpful in determining what the player was doing but, if the ball slips out, it is a fumble. The OP also said it was a fumble.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How about poor officiating? Seems that we should take away your next game check so as not to improperly reward that.

That is my way of telling you that you are incorrect on this point.

Anytime that the ball unintentionally slips out of a player's grasp, it is a fumble. The art of officiating is discerning if the action was unintentional or done deliberately. Officials are paid to make those judgment calls. What you have stated (that you are just going to penalize the player for bad offense) is lazy and a failure to fulfill one of the basic tenets of officiating--making an honest assessment of the game action.

I have to agree with this after reading all of the posts. This was mostly like an unintentional release of the ball. Probably not a double dribble if it was a classic muff. I wasn't there to see it.

I think if the ball moves far enough away that steps are taken, a travel call is the way to go.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Let's assume that somebody doesn't call this a double dribble, which I agree it is. Could the "secondary" call (if you miss the double dribble) be a travel? You essentially ended up passing to yourself after you lost your dribble. I think that is the call that the crowd, coaches, and players would understand and not argue with.

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I have to agree with this after reading all of the posts. This was mostly like an unintentional release of the ball. Probably not a double dribble if it was a classic muff. I wasn't there to see it.

I think if the ball moves far enough away that steps are taken, a travel call is the way to go.

One thing it's absolutely not is travelling. Yes, you won't get an argument but that's because most people haven't taken time to understand the rules on dribbling and travelling.

If it's not a fumble, then he has pushed the ball to the floor and, if he is the next player to touch the ball, it is a dribble. You cannot travel while dribbling.

The only difference between a bounce pass and a dribble is who touches the ball next.

So he has either fumbled the ball and legally recovered it or he has committed an illegal dribble violation. Which it is depends on whether you judge the release of the ball to be intentional or not.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There is (at least) one exception to that, I think.

Found it.

SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4-43-3a; 9-4)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

The judgment in the play is deciding on what it is you are seeing. Did the ball SLIP out of his hands when the other player went back door or did the player just "let up" on the pass? (The ball didnt slip, bobble etc.) If you determine that the ball slipped out of his hands judgment is over. The rule (fumble definition) says it is a fumble.

....

If you determine the ball slipped out of his hands, you've judged it a fumble. Someone else may judge those same actions were a pass.

[MD Longhorn]

Insisting that it's impossible to begin a pass, change one's mind, and then fumble the ball - thus ruling anything remotely like the OP an illegal dribble - is the call of least resistance. It will keep coaches, fans, players off your back... but it won't impress your supervisors should they see this or hear of it.

You decide what kind of official you'd rather be.

I would think that even after 15 years, one can still learn. The day I know everything in any sport is the day I should hang 'em up.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If you determine the ball slipped out of his hands, you've judged it a fumble. Someone else may judge those same actions were a pass.

Agree completely. The judgment is deciding if it slipped or not. That was the first thing I mentioned in that post. Once you decide it slipped, judgment is over. it is a fumble. Again, Deecee seem to acknowledge that the ball slipped, "pop out" i think he used, but still said it was a pass. That is where the issue is.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Found it.

SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4-43-3a; 9-4)

I really thought there was a case study at some point that had an airborne player fumble a ball, recover it, and the ruling was no violation. On vacation for a while, but I'll try to find it when I'm back in town.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Found it.

SITUATION 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the bail must be released for a try or pass. (4-43-3a; 9-4)

NCAA says the opposite in AR 76. Player can recover the ball. Also, had the shooter not dribbled previously, he could have started a dribble after recovering the ball. Whether he regained control of it while airborne or after he lands.

I don't think the play you cited is in case book…Was it at one time or is it an old interp.? thx

[chapmaja]

My opinion is that in the OP, I need to see something that clearly makes me think the player is not attempting to make a pass. There are a lot of things that can be seen by watching the action of the passer, including the actual release of the ball. Players will generally hold the ball differently when they are trying to not pass the ball compared with when they are going to pass the ball. The hand position can be a key thing to look at on plays like this.

I think we have all seen plays where the ball just slips out of a players hands when they are obviously faking a pass. There is a difference between that and a poorly thrown pass or a pass that goes where it shouldn't.

For me, I need to see that the act of releasing the ball was intentional and deliberate to call a violation on a play like that. In my opinion, the benefit of the doubt always goes to the player. The act is not illegally unless I am 100% sure it is illegal.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I have to agree with this after reading all of the posts. This was mostly like an unintentional release of the ball. Probably not a double dribble if it was a classic muff. I wasn't there to see it.

I think if the ball moves far enough away that steps are taken, a travel call is the way to go.

Totally incorrect. You can't travel if you don't have possession of the ball.

[deecee]

Finally heard back from my rules interpreter.

This sounds like a judgement call. If you feel that A1 was in the act of passing the ball and then tried to hold up but releases the pass anyway, I would say it is a violation if A1 was the first to touch the ball. If you feel A1 legitimately fumbled the ball without attempting to pass it, then it could be argued that A1 could be the first to pick up the ball. I think if A1 started any kind of passing motion and then tried to bring it back and lost the ball in the process, I would call it a pass and at that point and A1 could not be the first to pick up the ball.