I also cannot think straight

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by deecee

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is. In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

You are not answering the OP.

In the OP, it was judged (however crappily) to be a fumble. You are saying that it should almost never be judged to be so.

Thus, the disconnect in the thread.

You're both right.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You are not answering the OP.

In the OP, it was judged (however crappily) to be a fumble. You are saying that it should almost never be judged to be so.

Thus, the disconnect in the thread.

You're both right.

I don't like ties. Do you agree that if the ball slips out of my hands, it is a fumble?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You are not answering the OP.

In the OP, it was judged (however crappily) to be a fumble. You are saying that it should almost never be judged to be so.

Thus, the disconnect in the thread.

You're both right.

Bob, you are correct. If deemed a fumble then perfectly ok.

However I do not subscribe to the described sequence of events as a fumble.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by kycat1

I'm confused on the "fumble rule" and would love a ruling as I cannot find anything in the HS rule book except the definition and this does not help interpret certain plays.
Play - A1 finishes his dribble, looks to throw the ball to another player but stops his throw as the other player breaks the other way and it fumbles out of A1's hands onto the floor. A1 takes 2 or 3 steps and pick up the all. He does not dribble again, he just picks it up. What is the ruling?

Originally Posted by deecee

However I do not subscribe to the described sequence of events as a fumble.

Well, the opening poster deemed it a fumble, so they incorrectly called a violation.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by deecee

Before you try and get into a match of wits I'll spell it out for you since your rule book is probably misplaced

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when teh ball touches a player's own backboard.

1-15-3: The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

Now, stay with me, because it may go over your head. How can a player with control go to make a pass (an intentional act) then intentionally change his mind, and you call that a FUMBLE?????

A fumble is when a player goes to pick up his dribble cut FUMBLES gathering the ball. You can't have control of the ball with both hands go to pass, change your mind and then suddenly FUMBLE. It's throwing the ball to the floor and the start of a dribble.

Changing your mind in the middle of the pass and losing control of the ball is not an intentional act of striking the ball or pushing it to the floor. It is called a fumble, by definition, as determined by the rule makers of the game. Unfortunately as you can see below, they have a different definition of what a fumble is than you do (see below). As with most things you comment on here, it seems as though you have been messing this up for 15 years as well.

FUMBLE
A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp.
A fumble may be legally recovered by any player

Changing your mind in the middle of a pass and then losing control of the ball is a fumble. Fumbles are not, nor have they ever been limited to losing control of the ball right after stopping your dribble as you insist.

And just to make sure you understand your limited grasp of the English language has prevented you from understanding this rule your entire officiating career, please try on the following case book plays, which in no way fit into your opinion of what a fumble is.

After ending a dribble, A1 leaves the playing court to attempt a try for goal. While airborne, A1 fumbles the ball and:

1. Recovers the fumble while airborne, returns to the floor, and dribbles the ball or
2. Recovers the fumble after returning to the floor and then dribbles the ball.

Ruling: Violation in both 1 and 2. (Next sentence is key, read carefully) A1 is permitted to recover the ball but after recovering the ball is not allowed to start another dribble. If A1 had not previously dribbled the ball, and while airborne fumbled and recovered the ball, he is permitted to start a dribble.


Go ahead and continue not to reward bad offense or penalize good defense, just realize you are doing so based on your personal feelings and opinions and have no rules backing whatsoever.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

After 15 years I think I know what a fumble is.

Apparently not.

Originally Posted by deecee

In this instance with what was described I would not call this a fumble. Changing your mind on a pass and deciding to try and hold on the ball but the ball still pops out is a pass, albeit crappy one, in my book. I'm not rewarding bad offense or penalizing good defense here.

When a player does not intended to release the ball but it comes out anyway, that is defined as a fumble. So, what is described in the OP is a fumble, by rule.

The situation you referred to above on receiving a pass is defined as a "muff".

A dribble, as you want to call it, is a deliberate action. Not accidental.

[MechanicGuy]

I would have a hard time calling a play like this anything other than a violation. If the ball went far enough away that he had to take several steps to retrieve it, he more than likely voluntarily released the pass.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The situation you referred to above on receiving a pass is defined as a "muff".

While muff actually has multiple definitions the word doesn't actually appear in the books, does it?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

I would have a hard time calling a play like this anything other than a violation. If the ball went far enough away that he had to take several steps to retrieve it, he more than likely voluntarily released the pass.

That implies that you're more willing to call what everyone in the gym thinks should be called than to defend a no-call with confident knowledge of Rule 4. This is not good officiating form.

If you judge pass right away, go ahead and call ID in this situation. If you're not sure, to say that you would call a violation anyway based on the fact that it was "more than likely" a pass is guessing. Guessing on calls will not separate you. Ever.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... muff ... the word doesn't actually appear in the books, does it?

4.15.1 SITUATION B: A1’s throw-in pass is beyond A2. (a) A2 reaches out and
slaps the ball toward A’s basket; or (b) A2 muffs the pass. In both situations. A2
then gains control and dribbles to the basket and scores. RULING: No violation
in either (a) or (b).

4.44 SITUATION A: A1 attempts to catch the ball while running rapidly. A1
muffs the ball, but succeeds in securing it before it strikes the floor. A1 then
begins a dribble, taking several steps between the time the ball was first touched
until it was caught. RULING: There has been no violation provided A1, after catching
the ball, released the ball to start the dribble before the pivot foot was lifted
from the floor. (4-15)

9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs
the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her
habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off
his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to
prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No freethrow
violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation
shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)

9.2.1 SITUATION B: A1, out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in: (a)
muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) after receiving the ball
from the official, fumbles the ball and leaves the designated spot to retrieve the
fumble. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations
and then start the throw-in procedure again. No throw-in violation should
be called in this situation. In (b), a throw-in violation shall be called on A1 for
leaving the designated spot.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnny d

A fumble may be legally recovered by any player

There is (at least) one exception to that, I think.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Apparently not.


When a player does not intended to release the ball but it comes out anyway, that is defined as a fumble. So, what is described in the OP is a fumble, by rule.

The situation you referred to above on receiving a pass is defined as a "muff".

A dribble, as you want to call it, is a deliberate action. Not accidental.

I respectfully disagree. The player began the motion to make a pass, then changes his or her mind and the ball comes out. I am sticking with the original intent of the player that it was a pass attempt. Not my problem that the kid couldn't hold on to the ball. I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

I respectfully disagree. The player began the motion to make a pass, then changes his or her mind and the ball comes out. I am sticking with the original intent of the player that it was a pass attempt. Not my problem that the kid couldn't hold on to the ball. I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

Tuck rule?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Tuck rule?

Who knows. I am going to run this by our rules interpreter and get his feedback.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by deecee

I'm not going to penalize good defense and reward sloppy offense.

Where is this in rule book? I don't think you should use this as a base for your defense. You should stick to your judgement that it was a pass (and thus a violation) while acknowledging the OP, and others in that sitch, COULD have seen a fumble.