Illegal sub?? (New Ref)

[Cole4088]

So, I'm new to the officiating world. I had a partner today that has been doing it for 3 years and is a little shaky. This is a middle school boys game. We resumed play with a throw in Team A only has 4 players AFTER the throw in. They start yelling we only have four players. So, a player runs off the bench and play continues. I look at my partner he doesn't look concerned. I searched the case book.. Can't find anything..

[PG_Ref]

Welcome to the forum. There are a couple of questions that need to be answered. Did this take place after a timeout or after a routine substitution process? That will determine the proper application of the rule.See the following case plays:

10.1.9 SITUATION:

Following a charged time-out Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful three-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass.

RULING: A technical foul is immed*iately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission. While it is true the entire team may be off the court while the procedure is being used, once a team responds, all players must enter the court at approximately the same time.

10.3.2 SITUATION B:

After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and he/she sprints directly onto the court and catches up with the play.

RULING: No technical foul is charged to A5. A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair positioning advantage on the court.


Also check with your local leaders ... some organizations are more lenient with sub-varsity teams.

[Cole4088]

It was situation B. Thanks a ton.

[JRutledge]

This should for the most part never happen. Make sure you have 5 on a side before you put the ball in play. But if it does happen, you have rules as listed to take care of this.

It is also a T for having a player come onto the court without being beckoned as in 10-2-2.

Peace

[Cole4088]

I as a new official made a few mistakes being to quick instead of slowing down. I agree it shouldn't of happened on my part (stuff happens though) another bonehead mistake by me was.. Team A's coach called a timeout. He yells to me *Timeout just to get the Subs in* I blow my whistle signal to the table Timeout White 30 second called by the coach. Then continued to administer a throw in. Team B coach tells 'what was the whistle for?' At this point I knew I messed up rushing. I said 'a timeout'. He looks at me and shakes his head and says 'I would have like to know that and use the timeout' D'oh

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is also a T for having a player come onto the court without being beckoned as in 10-2-2.

Players don't need to be beckoned, they are already legally in the game. The beckoning only applies to substitutes.

Originally Posted by Cole4088

I as a new official made a few mistakes being to quick instead of slowing down. I agree it shouldn't of happened on my part (stuff happens though) another bonehead mistake by me was.. Team A's coach called a timeout. He yells to me *Timeout just to get the Subs in* I blow my whistle signal to the table Timeout White 30 second called by the coach. Then continued to administer a throw in. Team B coach tells 'what was the whistle for?' At this point I knew I messed up rushing. I said 'a timeout'. He looks at me and shakes his head and says 'I would have like to know that and use the timeout' D'oh

Yep, no substitution TOs in HS. That's a college rule. So in a high school game allow either team to use the time if they wish. If both are ready to go, then you may continue with the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Players don't need to be beckoned, they are already legally in the game. The beckoning only applies to substitutes.

If the player comes onto the court, then he is violated that rule.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the player comes onto the court, then he is violated that rule.

Peace

No, if he was a player and already in the game there is no provision for him to be beckoned in by the official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No, if he was a player and already in the game there is no provision for him to be beckoned in by the official.

But the player just ran onto the court. For one you cannot be beckoned at that point and you certainly are potentially a sub.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But the player just ran onto the court. For one you cannot be beckoned at that point and you certainly are potentially a sub.

Peace

A Player cannot be a Substitute. A Team Member can be a Substitute.

A Player can (in the OP) "just run onto the court." A Team Member who desires to be a Substitute cannot.

[Nevadaref]

Now would be a great time for JRut to do something that he never has on this forum--admit that he is wrong!

Don't hold your breath...

[AABATTEE]

Not knowing the rule I've had this happen multiple times but only in the frontcourt and after realizing the player hopped in the game I did not award a Technical only because I didn't know. The crowd nor coaches complained luckily.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Now would be a great time for JRut to do something that he never has on this forum--admit that he is wrong!

Don't hold your breath...

If the rule does not apply here then it does not apply, but not sure how someone just coming onto the floor is not a sub T. But to me that is splitting hairs, it is still illegal to just enter the court when you have not been in the game.

But we know you will not ever act like you have been around people discussing anything that is not always black and white. Makes me wonder do you have any friends? I know officials that discuss these kinds of things all the time and it is OK. Not everyone agrees at first on every single rule and idiosyncrasy of the rules at the time of these discussions.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

..... it is still illegal to just enter the court when you have not been in the game.

That was the whole point. He has been in the game. If nobody subbed for him, he's still a player, whether he's on the court or not.

But we know you will not ever act like you have been around people discussing anything that is not always black and white.

True, all rules questions are not black and white, but this one is.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That was the whole point. He has been in the game. If nobody subbed for him, he's still a player, whether he's on the court or not.

True, all rules questions are not black and white, but this one is.

The way I read this the ball was dead during a timeout or something and the player entered the court after the ball was made live. The "player" was not on the court legally at the time they entered the court. If that is not what he was saying, then OK but not how I read the OP.

Peace