Points off the board??

[Hartsy]

V1 fouls H1. Her 5th, team 8th. Teams line up for the free throw/s. Officials do not recognize signal from table that it is V1 5th. Ball with free thrower who is in shooting motion as buzzer sounds. Shot goes in. Officials remove V1 AND the point, bring in sub, then reset for the "1 and 1".

The whole process was a mess, but the "fix" was, too. It could have been worse I guess had the initial shot or it's "replacement" missed. Anything I am missing here? It's not how I would have handled it.

[Welpe]

Count the bucket and get a sub in for the second shot. You can't take points off for this and the horn does not kill the play.

[ODog]

Agreed.

Allow me to ask Hartsy's followup question: What if she missed?

I would just readminister after we replaced the DQd player. Thoughts?

[BigT]

+1

[BigT]

Originally Posted by ODog

Agreed.

Allow me to ask Hartsy's followup question: What if she missed?

I would just readminister after we replaced the DQd player. Thoughts?

agreed I would reshot.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by ODog

Agreed.

Allow me to ask Hartsy's followup question: What if she missed?

I would just readminister after we replaced the DQd player. Thoughts?

Until play is whistled dead V1 remains in game. Next dead ball following the miss, remove/replace V1 and then continue at POI, which would be possession arrow if whistle sounded before either team secured the rebound. This might get ugly if only one team reacted on the miss due to the horn sounding.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Until play is whistled dead V1 remains in game. Next dead ball following the miss, remove/replace V1 and then continue at POI, which would be possession arrow if whistle sounded before either team secured the rebound. This might get ugly if only one team reacted on the miss due to the horn sounding.

What on earth is this you are describing?

You take a player with their 5th foul out as soon as it's discovered. You do not wait for the next dead ball.

[Hartsy]

Yes, its just a matter of WHEN the whistle blows. If you recognize the error before the rebound is secured, then POI. If after, it goes to team in control when whistle blew.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Yes, its just a matter of WHEN the whistle blows. If you recognize the error before the rebound is secured, then POI. If after, it goes to team in control when whistle blew.

What whistle?

[ODog]

Harsty, B1 starts her motion, horn sounds erroneously, she misses, blow it dead. There is no rebounding.

Replace A1, readminister the 1-and-1.

Same scenario, free throw is made. Count the free throw, have A1 replaced, shoot the second.

[Hartsy]

The one you blow when you finally figure out that V1 had 5 fouls, or the one you blow when the horn sounds during play again. The NEXT whistle, regardless, will be the next dead ball.

It's not gonna be good no matter what. Especially on a miss. But in no case do you take a point off the board, or shoot another free throw.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by ODog

Harsty, B1 starts her motion, horn sounds erroneously, she misses, blow it dead. There is no rebounding.

Replace A1, readminister the 1-and-1.

Same scenario, free throw is made. Count the free throw, have A1 replaced, shoot the second.

Right, but if blown dead before rebounding, go to POI, not another shot. It will be ugly. Better hope she makes it, like what I saw last week.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Right, but if blown dead before rebounding, go to POI, not another shot. It will be ugly.

Exactly. Which is why you readminister. NOBODY will have an issue with this.

In this scenario, in my game, there is another shot coming. Whether it's the first or second simply depends on whether she made it.

[Welpe]

Technically there is no rule basis to award a "replacement" free throw in this situation. Game activity occurring before the officials are notified of the disqualification should all stand unless it is a CE, which this is not. That said, the horn sounding during the throwing motion is not part and parcel to a free throw attempt. I could see awarding another shot in this situation because of that but I think you're stretching the rules a bit. Now if the shot is missed without a horn during the throwing motion, I think you have to let the shot stand.

From 2-11-5:

ART. 5

The scorer shall: Record the personal and technical fouls reported on each player and notify an official immediately when the fifth foul (personal and technical) is charged to any player, the second technical foul is charged to any team *member, bench personnel, or directly to the head coach, or the third technical foul is charged to the head coach.

NOTES: The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul *continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such *player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is**** included among the duties of the officials.

Thinking a little more about this, if she is still in her motion when the horn sounds, it is probably a good idea to blow the play dead and figure out what the table needs.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by ODog

Exactly. Which is why you readminister. NOBODY will have an issue with this.

In this scenario, in my game, there is another shot coming. Whether it's the first or second simply depends on whether she made it.

Originally Posted by Welpe

Technically there is no rule basis to award a "replacement" free throw in this situation. Game activity occurring before the officials are notified of the disqualification should all stand unless it is a CE, which this is not. That said, the horn sounding during the throwing motion is not part and parcel to a free throw attempt. I could see awarding another shot in this situation because of that but I think you're stretching the rules a bit. Now if the shot is missed without a horn during the throwing motion, I think you have to let the shot stand.

My sense of fairness says that if it's missed, she should get another shot, however my knowledge of the rules says that might not be so easy. Even if no one takes issue (which they might), that doesn't make it correct. Is there any argument to make that this could be considered disconcerting? I don't have my rule book with me, but is disconcertion defined as an act done by a player?