Tech question

[BlueDevilRef]

Last week, had six players on court after a timeout just before halftime. We took one off but just as partner puts ball in play, kid jumps back into court thinking he was in the game. We whistles the T and moved on. At halftime, we checked book and noted we had correctly handled it.

I'm looking again just to keep up on it and I'm posting this bc I can't make myself understand. For ADMINISTRATIVE technicals , they are counted toward the team foul count but not assessed against the coach, therefore he doesn't lose the box, correct? I only ask bc I could swear I've seen it discussed that score book T before the game the coach loses the box but that is not in the chart labeled Technical Foul Penalty Summary. I've read rule 10 as well and I'm just frustrating myself

By the way, in the game described above, coach kept his box, we did not seatbelt him.

All these nuances are gonna drive me insane


I wish I had a cool signature

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

...I only ask bc I could swear I've seen it discussed that score book T before the game the coach loses the box but that is not in the chart labeled Technical Foul Penalty Summary. I've read rule 10 as well and I'm just frustrating myself
...

I wish I had a cool signature

B/c the HC does not lose the box for that infraction.

He does when bench personnel run directly on to the court.

And it doesn't just happen at that level. My first JuCo game of the season we had a player run directly on to the court from the bench.

[BlueDevilRef]

Ok. Maybe I'm just crazy. I could swear several topics on here were about coach getting seatbelt for admin book T before game (changing starter, adding player etc). But maybe I'm just getting it jumbled.

In my game I described, they had six on court. We had one go off and in a matter of next 1-2 secs as ball is being inbounded, he comes back onto court. Would anyone have done anything besides the team T,no indirect that we issued?


I wish I had a cool signature

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Ok. Maybe I'm just crazy. I could swear several topics on here were about coach getting seatbelt for admin book T before game (changing starter, adding player etc). But maybe I'm just getting it jumbled.

In my game I described, they had six on court. We had one go off and in a matter of next 1-2 secs as ball is being inbounded, he comes back onto court. Would anyone have done anything besides the team T,no indirect that we issued?

Don't rely on what you THINK you remember from these forums. Rely on what you KNOW from studying in the rulebook. There is a great Technical Foul Penalty Summary chart in the back of the book that has a column showing whether the coach gets a direct, indirect or nothing, based on the type of technical foul assessed.

He loses his box for anything direct or indirect on him.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Ok. Maybe I'm just crazy. I could swear several topics on here were about coach getting seatbelt for admin book T before game (changing starter, adding player etc). But maybe I'm just getting it jumbled.

As W&S posted, by this point it shouldn't matter what you thought you read here. You've had ample time to check your rule book since last night's game. You should already know the answer for certain now.

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

In my game I described, they had six on court. We had one go off and in a matter of next 1-2 secs as ball is being inbounded, he comes back onto court. Would anyone have done anything besides the team T,no indirect that we issued?


I wish I had a cool signature

That is a bench Technical for a player illegally entering the court. It's is charged directly to the player and indirectly to the coach. Six players on the court is a Team Technical charged when plays resumes with 6 players on the court, or you notice 6 players on the court but didn't see the extra player enter. In this case you saw the player jump of the bench and illegally enter the game while the ball was live.

[BlueDevilRef]

W&S, thanks!! That's what I'm looking for


I wish I had a cool signature

[Nevadaref]

I believe that you are being confused by a previous forum discussion on pregame dunking.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As W&S posted, by this point it shouldn't matter what you thought you read here. You've had ample time to check your rule book since last night's game. You should already know the answer for certain now.











That is a bench Technical for a player illegally entering the court. It's is charged directly to the player and indirectly to the coach. Six players on the court is a Team Technical charged when plays resumes with 6 players on the court, or you notice 6 players on the court but didn't see the extra player enter. In this case you saw the player jump of the bench and illegally enter the game while the ball was live.

He didn't jump off bench, he ran off court when we noticed we had six and then right back on when he thought he was supposed to be in. But, I do see the difference. Not that it matters but this was a 7th grade game.

And bc it will matter as I go further, isn't getting the right number of players why we count? If there are six, does everyone get the extra players off floor or just issue a T? My understanding is that we don't resume play until we have the five on five??

Again, I appreciate the counseling. I can read the book until my eyes cross but I do feel this forum helps me apply what I read.


I wish I had a cool signature

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

And bc it will matter as I go further, isn't getting the right number of players why we count? If there are six, does everyone get the extra players off floor or just issue a T? My understanding is that we don't resume play until we have the five on five??

That's correct, but at some point you'll count incorrectly, or you won't see the player leave the bench and enter the court, or ...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

He didn't jump off bench, he ran off court when we noticed we had six and then right back on when he thought he was supposed to be in. But, I do see the difference. Not that it matters but this was a 7th grade game.

And bc it will matter as I go further, isn't getting the right number of players why we count? If there are six, does everyone get the extra players off floor or just issue a T? My understanding is that we don't resume play until we have the five on five??

Again, I appreciate the counseling. I can read the book until my eyes cross but I do feel this forum helps me apply what I read.


I wish I had a cool signature

Until the ball becomes live, no infraction has occurred.
If you can hold up your partner from administering the throw-in and remove the excess team member, then there is no penalty needed.

[BlueDevilRef]

Thanks again!!! As I've stated, the more I learn the better I can apply rules


I wish I had a cool signature

[Mark Padgett]

Just remember - if you're counting the number of players on the floor from both teams, if you have to take off a shoe and sock to keep counting, there's too many players.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Just remember - if you're counting the number of players on the floor from both teams, if you have to take off a shoe and sock to keep counting, there's too many players.

Nope. Six fingers on right hand......


I wish I had a cool signature

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Nope. Six fingers on right hand......

My high school shop teacher (we took shop back then, along with huntin', gruntin,' and cave painting) only had four fingers on one hand. When he told you that it was important to follow all the safety rules when using power tools, we all listened.

[BillyMac]

I posted several questions (below) a few years go. I never got any satisfactory replies:

I’m having problems fully understanding the administration of the 10-1-6 (more than five team members participating simultaneously) penalty. If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Here is the rule that it’s based on: NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

Here’s the only casebook play involving more than five team members participating simultaneously:

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

Here are some situations that are confusing me:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) (above) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

Participating? It should mean becoming a player, but the NFHS didn't write the rules that way, so it actually means to be on the court during a live ball. Being beckoned in and becoming a player is not enough.

Does the NCAA bulletin (below) shed any light on an NFHS interpretation?

NCAA bulletin

In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:

SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?

RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Hopefully this clarification will assist officials with the understanding and application of these rules. Thank you for your attention to this information.

At the very least, these issues should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.