Blocking Foul Questions

[SubPlayer]

Hello Folks,

So here’s a common situation.
In close to the paint, I am closely defending a player (who either has or does not have possession). I get in front of them and when they move in toward the basket, I set my feet, stand up, and stick my stomach out to contact them.
Here are some key points: they hit me in the numbers, I am not straight up and down (in my cylinder), my legs are leaning forward, my back is leaning back, and I am hitting them with my stomach to stop their forward progress.

So…am I committing a foul?
If so:
• What foul?
• Would most HS refs call it?
• Would most college refs call it?
• Would any NBA ref call it?
Am I violating the offensive player’s position on the court?
Am I violating the offensive player’s next move from that position?


Here’s another common related situation.
I am closely defending a player. I use the tactic above to stop them. Then I back off slightly (there’s no contact) and move laterally to keep in front of them. When they next come in toward the basket, I meet them with my stomach punch. All the points from the previous situation apply.

Have I committed a blocking foul?
If not,
• Is the key point that determines no blocking foul the fact that the offensive player hit me in the numbers?
• Is there ANY way that I can commit a blocking foul in a situation that has all those factors? If so, how?


Thanks,

[JetMetFan]

Here's the NFHS definition of guarding:

Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without *illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

Here's the NFHS definition of how you obtain legal guarding position:

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Here's the NFHS definition of how you maintain legal guarding position:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

The criteria are essentially the same under the NCAA and NBA rule set. Look at these and determine whether what you're doing violates any of them. If so, then you're committing a foul.

[JRutledge]

First of all welcome to the forum.

Secondly, I have no idea what would most officials call. It is hard to know what to call based on solely the description. But when you say I stick your belly out to make contact, that certainly does not sound like you are vertical or in a legal position.

It really does not matter what they call, you make illegal contact it is a foul. You do not get an extra foul if it is called a specific way. I might call a push, but I could call a block if you do the right things.

Also there are rules different at all those levels. What those levels emphasize is different. Not sure most of us would know what the other levels do or what others around the country would do at the HS level for example. Most of us are different skill levels and have different interpretations we follow.

Peace

Sounds like a charge to me man which means the ref in your last men's league game got the call wrong.

[SubPlayer]

Thank you for the replies folks.
These are pickup games, so there are 10 refs on the court, none with whistles.

I have read the pertinent NCAA rules and I used to coach HS ball in the 90's.
Which means I am just smart enough to be very stupid.
I don't see where such a tactic is illegal.

Is it illegal for the player to extend their stomach forward to make FIRST contact?
It doesn't violate the first NFHS legal guarding quote above (the feet are set, the defender is facing the offensive player).
The NFHS maintaining a legal guarding quote does have a possible violation:
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
However, the stomach moving forward is actually PRIOR to first contact. After that, the defender does not repeatedly hammer the other player with their stomach. The player is not moving forward when MAINTAINING their guarding position.


To me, the key points are that the defender is facing the offensive player, and the defender has set their feet. When the two players contact, they meet "in the numbers", meaning that the defender is not moving laterally into the path of the offensive player. Additionally, the defender is not leaning side-to-side. However, the defender is leaning forward (from the feet up to the waist). The defender's arms are back and never in contact.

I don't think it is illegal for the defender's stomach to be moving forward to establish the first point of contact.

In my league days, I instructed my players in this tactic. We didn't get an inordinate number of whistles.

If this is a charging or blocking foul, what exactly is the defender doing that is illegal?


Thanks again,

[bob jenkins]

I assume you think you are getting some advantage from this tactic, as opposed to just standing there and accepting the contact from the offensive player.

To the extent that is true, then you must be moving forward, outside your "cylinder". That makes it a block.

If you are just "trying" this tactic but don't really execute it and move forward, then it's legal.

[billyu2]

Also check the section on verticality. (4-45-6) It mentions something to the effect "bellying-up" into the opponent (extending beyond defender's vertical plane) is a foul.

[BatteryPowered]

Based on what you wrote, it sounds like you are committing a blocking foul...nobody here can know for sure without seeing the play.

However, if you keep getting fouls called when you take these approaches there is a really good chance the officials working your games consider your actions to be in violation of the rules and, as a result, deem a foul has been committed. Therefore you are left with two options...foul out of games and/or see you playing time limited or learn a better way to play defense.

I do applaud you for wanting to learn more about the rules of the game and their application.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by SubPlayer

I have read the pertinent NCAA rules and I used to coach HS ball in the 90's.
Which means I am just smart enough to be very stupid.

Just being able to admit that makes you smarter than a large majority of coaches/players out there, especially in the wreck leagues.

[Kansas Ref]

Why are you 'bellying up' trying to play post defense? Why not just play defense the normal and effective way---arms up extended in your vertical cylinder, and moving laterally with A1?
Reminds me of B1 "playing defense with their face"---when they are lurching forward with their face in direct intrusion of A1's rightful vertical column.

Then they get their get a nasal or orbital fracture as a result of 'encroaching' into A1's vertical space--and to add lemon juice and salt to an open the wound--I as a referee would call a blocking or hitting foul on that injured player.

[schmelzer988]

Originally Posted by SubPlayer

Thank you for the replies folks.
These are pickup games, so there are 10 refs on the court, none with whistles.

I have read the pertinent NCAA rules and I used to coach HS ball in the 90's.
Which means I am just smart enough to be very stupid.
I don't see where such a tactic is illegal.

Is it illegal for the player to extend their stomach forward to make FIRST contact?
It doesn't violate the first NFHS legal guarding quote above (the feet are set, the defender is facing the offensive player).
The NFHS maintaining a legal guarding quote does have a possible violation:
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
However, the stomach moving forward is actually PRIOR to first contact. After that, the defender does not repeatedly hammer the other player with their stomach. The player is not moving forward when MAINTAINING their guarding position.


To me, the key points are that the defender is facing the offensive player, and the defender has set their feet. When the two players contact, they meet "in the numbers", meaning that the defender is not moving laterally into the path of the offensive player. Additionally, the defender is not leaning side-to-side. However, the defender is leaning forward (from the feet up to the waist). The defender's arms are back and never in contact.

I don't think it is illegal for the defender's stomach to be moving forward to establish the first point of contact.

In my league days, I instructed my players in this tactic. We didn't get an inordinate number of whistles.

If this is a charging or blocking foul, what exactly is the defender doing that is illegal?


Thanks again,

Sent from my SGH-T399 using Tapatalk

[Camron Rust]

Sounds like a block to me. Extending your belly in front if you (your feet) is not a legal defensive position.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sounds like a block to me. Extending your belly in front if you (your feet) is not a legal defensive position.

I guess that I have not had a LGP in many a year, .

MTD, Sr.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I guess that I have not had a LGP in many a year, .

MTD, Sr.

Ok, extending it more than it naturally does when standing upright.

[Kansas Ref]

A1 has/is holding the ball at the 28 ft lined marked area in A1's frontcourt, B1 comes out to guard A1. B1 establishes LGP, but extends arm out to just barely touch A1--in sort of the appearance of "measuring" the distance btw A1 and B1. THen A1 starts a dribble and B1 removes hand from A1 and shuffles feet in the normal defensive posture.

Do you guys call a foul on that first contact"?