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Old Wed Sep 27, 2006, 06:30pm
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Player control/Blocking foul?

Pretty new at this, but this situation has been on my mind for awhile so I'll pose it to you vets:

To make it simple, let's say Team B is in a zone defense, 2-1-2, 1-2-2, etc. A1 with the ball is at the elbow defended by B1. B2 is in defensive position just under the glass, same side of lane. A1 gives B1 an excellent shot fake causing B1 to jump in the air to attempt to block the faked shot. B2 also taking A1's fake of a shot, turns and faces the glass to watch for a possible rebound. A1 drives past B1, so you can forget about him because he's still in the air. A1 goes in for a layup and essentially climbs up over B2's back to score a goal.

Now, if the contact is severe enough, would it be a player control foul or a blocking foul? In trying to understand Legal Guarding Position I've kinda read into the definition that a defender has to "either actively defend or get out of the way". So, if B2 turns his back to an approaching offensive player with the ball, is it fair? sporting? for the offensive player to go through B2? I'm thinking 'yes' because B2 is not in LGP, (he's not actively defending and he is 'in the way'), but it's these type collisions that get the parents, fans, coaches of Team B going nuts because A caused the contact. And, I'm not saying A1 barrels into him with intent to clobber him, A1 is going to the goal for a score. I think this is probably more a situation I see at lower levels where you have the 1 good player who has good skills and the big lug is under the hoop a couple of heartbeats behind the others.

What say you?
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Old Wed Sep 27, 2006, 06:43pm
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I also am new but my take...

Is that B2 was initially in a legal guarding position. He is entitled to a spot on the floor. He does not need to be facing his opponent. The contact was initiated by the offensive player. I would have a player control foul.
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Old Wed Sep 27, 2006, 07:07pm
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When B2 had two feet on the floor and was facing A1, he established a legal guarding position. To maintain that position, B2 does not need to remain facing A1. He does not have to be stationary. He does not have to remain on the floor. Once B2 establishes that LGP, any contact on the torso is a foul on A1 unless B2 is moving toward A1 at the time of the contact.
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Old Wed Sep 27, 2006, 07:07pm
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Foul on A1. You can't run over an opponent just because he has his back to you.
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Old Wed Sep 27, 2006, 10:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrefalot
Is that B2 was initially in a legal guarding position. He is entitled to a spot on the floor. He does not need to be facing his opponent. The contact was initiated by the offensive player. I would have a player control foul.
Even if B2 NEVER had legal guarding position, it would still be a player control foul.

B2 was stationary and is entitled to that spot. LGP essentially allows the defender to be in motion (laterally or obliquely away) at the time of contact. B2 wasn't in motion and hadn't been in motion and, thus, didn't need LGP.
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Old Wed Sep 27, 2006, 10:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
B2 wasn't in motion and hadn't been in motion and, thus, didn't need LGP.
Exactly. LGP just gives the defender some additional rights. Those additional rights aren't needed here because B2 has a right to maintain his spot.
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Old Wed Sep 27, 2006, 10:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebraman
Exactly. LGP just gives the defender some additional rights. Those additional rights aren't needed here because B2 has a right to maintain his spot.
You could say that B2 wasn't guarding so LGP doesn't apply. Every player has a right to his or her spot on the floor and the air above it, all the way to the ceiling. PC foul.
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 05:34am
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I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 08:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRef
I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.
Not me!! It's true that a lot of refs have trouble with B/C and tend to bail with an easier blocking call, but that doesn't make it the right call. Whoever is behind is almost always at fault, just like in driving. It's really very simple.
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 08:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Not me!! It's true that a lot of refs have trouble with B/C and tend to bail with an easier blocking call, but that doesn't make it the right call. Whoever is behind is almost always at fault, just like in driving. It's really very simple.

I think if we had 100 guys in a room and showed this play on video it maybe split down the middle 50-50 block/charge!
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 08:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRef
I think if most of us see this play live and not in writing we call it a blocking foul.
Why?

You wouldn't allow somebody to push an opponent from behind during rebounding action to get a put-back. Why would you allow a player to push somebody from behind for the initial shot? That doesn't make much sense to me.
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 08:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
Why?

You wouldn't allow somebody to push an opponent from behind during rebounding action to get a put-back. Why would you allow a player to push somebody from behind for the initial shot? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Like any block/charge it is tough to comment when we actually don't see the play! If I see the paly I may indeed call it a Charge!
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 08:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRef
I think if we had 100 guys in a room ....
Well, there's your problem right there. You're working with a bunch of good ol' boys. If you are using current up to date refs, there'll be a least a few women, and the group over all will be more likely to call the play correctly.
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 08:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Well, there's your problem right there. You're working with a bunch of good ol' boys. If you are using current up to date refs, there'll be a least a few women, and the group over all will be more likely to call the play correctly.

Rainmaker: That is funny, since I work women's ball I am usually working with one or more female officials. I really have a hard problem with a big "lug" standing under the hoop and giving the foul to the offense (NF it is still by rule a charge). He is not playing defense under the hoop and where is the offensive player supposed to go?
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Old Thu Sep 28, 2006, 08:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRef
Rainmaker: That is funny, since I work women's ball I am usually working with one or more female officials. I really have a hard problem with a big "lug" standing under the hoop and giving the foul to the offense (NF it is still by rule a charge). He is not playing defense under the hoop and where is the offensive player supposed to go?
The offensive player is supposed to go someplace where there isn't another person standing! There's nothing anywhere in the rule book that gives the shooter the right to run up an opponent's back. I sincerely hope you are just yanking some chains, but it doesn't matter. Someone else can take this battle on. I'm going away for the weekend to relax a little and enjoy some beautiful coastal scenery. I hope you enjoy your Jr. Hi basketball season!
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