IAABO OOB mechanics

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by constable

I was reading through the IAABO 2 person manual. It says that if the ball goes OOB above the FTE on the lead's sideline, the trail while working the arc, is responsible for the OBB call.

How ridiculous is this? My local board doesn't employ this logic. Does anyone other IAABO board use it?

Originally Posted by stripes

In my neck of the woods, we are not IAABO, but we have used this "mechanic" for more than 20 years. More often than not, the T will have a better look at the play than the L. Especially if the ball is high and there is post play on the L's side. The L can always make the call if the L sees the OOB, but it is generally called by the T. Very easy to do.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If it is obvious, the lead might not be watching the ball going out of bounds. Now a touching the line or ball hitting the sideline will be the lead's call, but the ball clearly going out of bounds where it hits a wall or goes into the stands, the Trail might be on ball and obviously tell who put the ball out of bounds. You have to work together. I think the Trail should blow the whistle if the ball clearly goes out of bounds, but look to the Lead for help. It is a huge flaw in the mechanics already so there is no perfect way to handle this either way.

Peace

What IAABO has done in its Mechanics Book has put into writing what Stripes has said has been done for over twenty years across the country.

The L's Side Line is always (with apologies to "you know who"). The IAABO mechanic is a guideline for when the L has major coverage issues directly in front of him and the ball gets knocked out-of-bounds above the FT Line Extended that the L does not know that the Ball has gone out-of-bounds.

I remember, as if it were yesterday, a game in the AAU Boys' 13U Nationals in the late 1990s (not 1890s Billy, ), and Daryl H. Long (aka "The Preacher" on the Forum was my partner). I was the L when a 3-pt FGA was taken from his side of the court. I had a lot of action in the paint. The FGA attempt was unsuccessful and rebounded back toward the top of the key and then was batted with great velocity out-of-bounds above the FT Line Extended. The amount of time between the FGA being missed and being batted out-of-bounds was less than I could count 3 seconds in the paint, and yet I knew the ball had been batted toward my Side Line but the action of bodies banging in the paint had my attention and Daryl had to stop the clock and make the call.

The thing to remember is that these types of plays may only happen one or two times a game. The key is to be prepared to step and help your partner. If a HC does not like the T making the call, tell him to pay for three officials, .

MTD, Sr.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by stripes

In my neck of the woods, we are not IAABO, but we have used this "mechanic" for more than 20 years. More often than not, the T will have a better look at the play than the L. Especially if the ball is high and there is post play on the L's side. The L can always make the call if the L sees the OOB, but it is generally called by the T. Very easy to do.

I agree. Stripes and I are in the same area and we have done it this way for Two decades. For those interested NBA two man mechanics has done it this way....the simplest way to explain this, ball is in trails primary and trail is on ball. Lead if officiating correctly is not looking at the ball. There are gaps in a 2 person crew. This is one. Trail works arc and can see these plays. I'd much rather miss a toe on the line than some serious off ball garbage in the post. Tare a look at NFHS mechanics manual when lead goes strong side, trail ends up covering the far side of paint and may have the best whistle.

This may be blunt but the some games I have had problems with on this are when officials get too rigid about "that's my line " nonsense. I don't want trail blowing the end line but in two person, strong side game there is more fluidity

For those that think the 2person strong side game is baloney, re read the mechanics manual...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I don't want trail blowing the end line but in two person ...

Devil's Advocate here: In IAABO two person mechanics, the sideline boundaries are the responsibility of the primary coverage area officials, but on the front court endline, the lead has responsibility for the entire endline, even the portion outside of his primary coverage area, while the trail has a primary coverage area that does not include a frontcourt endline boundary responsibility.

Goose-gander?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Devil's Advocate here: In IAABO two person mechanics, the sideline boundaries are the responsibility of the primary coverage area officials, but on the front court endline, the lead has responsibility for the entire endline, even the portion outside of his primary coverage area, while the trail has a primary coverage area that does not include an endline boundary responsibility.

Goose-gander?

Umm, who is responsible for the backcourt endline?

That gives the Trail 3 boundary lines to deal with: his sideline, the division line, and the backcourt endline.

[BillyMac]

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Umm, who is responsible for the backcourt endline?

... The trail, because it's in his primary coverage area, as is the division line, the near sideline, and the far sideline above the free throw line extended. A small portion of the frontcourt endline is also part of the trail's primary coverage area, but he's not responsible for the boundary line there.

IAABO took away the lead's sideline boundary above the free throw line extended because it didn't want the lead ball watching. But it wants the lead to ball watch when the ball goes out of bounds, or a player steps on the boundary, on the entire frontcourt endline, even though a portion of it (the far side) is outside the lead's primary coverage area.

As the lead, if I'm watching for the legality of a weak side screen in the paint, how can I also watch for a player stepping a half inch on the frontcourt endline when said player is all the way down in the opposite corner, dozens of feet away from me, and several feet outside of my primary coverage area (again, Devil's Advocate here)?

Does IAABO want us to call boundaries in our primary coverage areas, and not ball watch, or does it want to give us some simple boundary responsibilities, like the good old (IAABO) days, and not have to mentally debate whether, or not, the out of bounds violation is above, or below, the free throw line extended?

[Rich]

Look, I get the lead not knowing who it went out off of, but I can't remember an instance where I wasn't aware it went out.....

And I need more help as the lead in 3-person than 2 it seems.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Look, I get the lead not knowing who it went out off of, but I can't remember an instance where I wasn't aware it went out.....

And I need more help as the lead in 3-person than 2 it seems.

The issue is not whether you know if the ball is out of bounds. The issue is do you know who it is was out of bounds off of? And if you are doing your job as the Lead, you probably are not always aware of that fact. At least when we use two person, it is for lower level games. I cannot imagine the decisions having to work high level varsity with only two officials for this reason. I got to watch players in the post and be aware of how the ball is being defended on the sideline. This is one of the biggest flaws/holes in 2 person mechanics IMO.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In the case of a player stepping on the line, only the L has decent view of that.

How can the lead have a decent view if he's not even looking over there because it's outside his primary coverage area? He's watching post players, and defenders, banging around in the paint, maybe watching for three seconds. He's not watching the point guard about to step on the sideline boundary above the free throw line extended, maybe near the division line. That would be ball watching.

Granted, this is a challenge for the trail, especially after a skip pass, but at least it's in the trail's primary coverage area.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The issue is not whether you know if the ball is out of bounds. The issue is do you know who it is was out of bounds off of? And if you are doing your job as the Lead, you probably are not always aware of that fact ... This is one of the biggest flaws/holes in 2 person mechanics.

Agree 100%.

Back in the olden days, IAABO used NFHS mechanics and had the lead's out of bounds responsibility include the entire sideline, all the way back to the backcourt endline. It was a simple guideline to follow, and would occasionally have the lead sounding his whistle for the out of bounds, and then asking the trail for help on the correct direction call. The simplicity was the best part of the mechanic, even if the out of bounds responsibility above the free throw line extended was clearly outside the lead's primary coverage area.

Then IAABO changed to IAABO mechanics and ended the lead's out of bounds responsibility at the free throw line extended. A lot of old timers, including myself, resisted the change. It required the lead, and the trail, to decide if the ball went out above, or below, the free throw line extended, definitely more complex then the old, simple, out of bounds responsibilities. Occasionally there would be no immediate whistle when the ball went out of bounds above the free the line extended, with both the trail, and the lead, thinking that the other was going to sound the whistle for the ball going out of bounds.

It took some time, but we're all starting to get use to the new out of bounds responsibilities. The topic is broached in almost every pregame conference. It's not a perfect guideline, but in the grand scheme of things, regarding primary coverage responsibilities, it makes a lot of sense.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How can the lead have a decent view if he's not even looking over there because it's outside his primary coverage area? He's watching post players, and defenders, banging around in the paint, maybe watching for three seconds. He's not watching the point guard about to step on the sideline boundary above the free throw line extended, maybe near the division line. That would be ball watching.

Granted, this is a challenge for the trail, especially after a skip pass, but at least it's in the trail's primary coverage area.

2-person is a game of compromises. When the player gets that close to the sideline, the lead just has to give up the post momentarily and look up the sideline. That line itself is also the leads PCA. There is no way a T, even one who has great movement, will have the angle to see a player stepping OOB unless it is far OOB. A ball that is knocked out and lands in the first row, sure, but not one that goes 1" OOB.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Then IAABO changed to IAABO mechanics and ended the lead's out of bounds responsibility at the free throw line extended. A lot of old timers, including myself, resisted the change. It required the lead, and the trail, to decide if the ball went out above, or below, the free throw line extended, definitely more complex then the old, simple, out of bounds responsibilities. Occasionally there would be no immediate whistle when the ball went out of bounds above the free the line extended, with both the trail, and the lead, thinking that the other was going to sound the whistle for the ball going out of bounds.

It took some time, but we're all starting to get use to the new out of bounds responsibilities. The topic is broached in almost every pregame conference. It's not a perfect guideline, but in the grand scheme of things, regarding primary coverage responsibilities, it makes a lot of sense.

I think it only makes sense when the ball is knocked OOB. I think it makes no sense when the actual question is whether the player stepped on the line or dribbled the ball on the line. The trail just can't see those things. There is no amount of responsibility shifting and understanding that will allow the trail to see something that isn't visible from any normal trail position. The only way that "might" work is if the trail came all the way across to get in line with the far sideline, effectively forcing a cross court rotation.

The only person who can reliably make determinations on whether a player has stepped on a line or not is the official who is looking down that line.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That line itself is also the leads PCA.

According to the old NFHS (I'm not familiar with the new NFHS guidelines), you are correct. The new IAABO guidelines have the lead's PCA, regarding boundary line responsibilities, only as far as the free throw line extended.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The only person who can reliably make determinations on whether a player has stepped on a line or not is the official who is looking down that line.

And, or course, half the time, both coaches have the best look at a player stepping on that sideline. Give both of them a "table side sideline out of bounds between the free throw lines extended only Fox 40 whistle".

Camron Rust: You're preaching to the choir. I really liked the simplicity of the old NFHS, and old IAABO, boundary line responsibility mechanics. I guess that IAABO wants to stress the importance of staying in one's primary coverage area, even in regard to boundary line responsibilities, and wants to avoid ball watching at all costs. I'm not defending IAABO mechanics, I'm just trying to explain their reasoning. In any case, I'm not a rebel, I usually do what I'm told, so I reluctantly use the new IAABO boundary line responsibility guidelines, after pregaming the heck out of them.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The issue is not whether you know if the ball is out of bounds. The issue is do you know who it is was out of bounds off of? And if you are doing your job as the Lead, you probably are not always aware of that fact. At least when we use two person, it is for lower level games. I cannot imagine the decisions having to work high level varsity with only two officials for this reason. I got to watch players in the post and be aware of how the ball is being defended on the sideline. This is one of the biggest flaws/holes in 2 person mechanics IMO.

Peace

It's still the L's whistle. That was my point.

I may need to get help as the L, but I'm still blowing my whistle on balls leaving the court on my lines -- and that includes my sideline in a 2-person crew.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's still the L's whistle. That was my point.

I may need to get help as the L, but I'm still blowing my whistle on balls leaving the court on my lines -- and that includes my sideline in a 2-person crew.

It is their primary, but it might not be something they even know they should blow the whistle on if they are not very experienced in that system.

Heck even when I have worked these games after almost exclusively working 3 person, I have to remember to keep an eye on the line as the lead.

I am not saying that the Trail should make the call, I am just saying they are the one that likely saw how the ball got out of bounds.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... I have to remember to keep an eye on the line as the lead.

And with the "new and improved" IAABO guidelines, I have to remember, as the trail, to keep my eye on the far sideline above the free throw line extended, including the far sideline in the backcourt. I would be lying to you if I said that over the past several years I have worked games during which there have been no pregnant pauses between the ball going out of bounds and a whistle sounding, which can be pretty embarrassing when the ball is sitting on a coach's lap.

[Rich]

I'm concerned when officials aren't aware enough to know when a ball shoots out of bounds. I don't need to see it to know it's out (and blow a whistle).