BOT question

[dash_riprock]

Jim has the wrong guy out as well. Typo?

[Dave Reed]

In NFHS, when the improper batter becomes a runner or is put out, and the BOOT is appealed, all runner return to TOP base. 7.1.2 Penalty 2 (from a 2009 rule book)

In OBR, "nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise." (6.07, and my bolding for emphasis)

[bsaucer]

Let's try this: Bases Loaded, two out. Improper batter strikes out on a wild pitch. Everybody safe.

a) If no appeal, does batter get RBI?
b) If appeal and proper batter called out, does run count?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by bsaucer

Let's try this: Bases Loaded, two out. Improper batter strikes out on a wild pitch. Everybody safe.

a) If no appeal, does batter get RBI?
b) If appeal and proper batter called out, does run count?

a) who cares.

b) No.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Jim has the wrong guy out as well. Typo?

Hope so.

[bsaucer]

Originally Posted by umpjim

a) who cares.

b) No.

I think the two questions tie together... Did the runner score because of wild pitch (NO RBI), or because the batter became a runner(RBI)?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by bsaucer

I think the two questions tie together... Did the runner score because of wild pitch (NO RBI), or because the batter became a runner(RBI)?

I wouldn't use Rule 10 to figure out Rules 1 thru 9.
Wendelstedt says "a runner has advanced as a result of the batter becoming a batter-runner when he is forced to advance as a result of a base on balls, uncaught third strike, etc....."
If he is not forced as in Jim Paronto's NCAA ruling (I think he meant leave him 3B otherwise he would have said return R2 to 2B) but I'm not sure how OBR rules but previous posters say no advances when the batter becomes a batter-runner.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

...this might be ruleset specific... where are those books now....

yep. When I'm interpreting from memory on a non-ruleset-specific play, FED is my last source. So, apologies to those I said were "wrong"; we're just coming from different places.

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Jim has the wrong guy out as well. Typo?

I didn't make a typo; I typed exactly what I intended. I was just careless and wrong. I know who is supposed to be called out, as evidenced by post #29.

I'm not sure what Paronto's excuse is.

In the R1, R3 play I gave, I learned that when determining whether R1 advanced because of the BB or because of the WP, go with the BB (and bring R1 back) because it doesn't require any conjecture. It sounds like Paronto might want a more nuanced approach. That is, if R3 scored, it is safe to assume that R1 would have advanced irrespective of the pitch being ball four (leave R1 at 2nd). I'll have to get that clarified.

[bsaucer]

Here's another scenario: R1, two outs. While improper batter is batting, R1 is picked off for third out. If an appeal is made at this point, is the proper batter out, or does he bat the next inning?

If there is no appeal, who bats next inning? Does the improper batter become the proper batter, or does the original proper batter bat?

My guess is that in either case, the same proper batter bats next inning, since the improper batter never finished batting.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bsaucer

Here's another scenario: R1, two outs. While improper batter is batting, R1 is picked off for third out. If an appeal is made at this point, is the proper batter out, or does he bat the next inning?

If there is no appeal, who bats next inning? Does the improper batter become the proper batter, or does the original proper batter bat?

My guess is that in either case, the same proper batter bats next inning, since the improper batter never finished batting.

That's correct -- no additional out and the proper batter is the proper batter

[bwburke94]

For an improper batter to be called out, they must complete their plate appearance.

With a runner on first, I'd interpret the wild-pitch question differently than Paronto did, because the runner was forced to second, and furthermore the defensive team was denied the chance to put him out. Under no circumstance can an improper batter becoming a runner give the batting team an advantage.

With a runner on second and first base open, the advance stands because the runner's advancement was not affected by the improper batter becoming a runner. However, if the runner's advancement to third is a result of a play being made on the improper batter-runner, he will be forced to return to second.

If a runner on second (with first base open) attempts to steal third on ball four to an improper batter and is thrown out, the out stands and the proper batter is also out.

If a runner on first overslides second base on ball four to an improper batter and is thrown out, the out stands and the proper batter is also out.

In the strikeout/wild pitch scenario, the runners were forced to advance and would return to their bases at time of pitch, but it's irrelevant because the proper batter is the third out. Since the putout goes to the catcher it can be assumed that the proper batter is considered to be put out before he reaches first base.

In the strikeout/wild pitch scenario with less than two outs, the batter is out, so the runners are not forced and do advance because the pitch being strike three does not affect their advancement.

If there is a force play at second with less than two outs, the out at second stands and the proper batter is also out, because the rule for batting out of turn contains no provisions for returning runners who have been put out to their time-of-pitch base.

If there is a force play at second with two outs, or a double play that does not involve the batter-runner with one out, the only person ruled out is the proper batter because otherwise four outs would be recorded in the inning.

All scenarios assume that there is an improper batter and that an appeal is made. I am not an umpire but I know the rule and know how to enforce it.

[bwburke94]

edit: removed double post

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

For an improper batter to be called out, they must complete their plate appearance.

With a runner on first, I'd interpret the wild-pitch question differently than Paronto did, because the runner was forced to second, and furthermore the defensive team was denied the chance to put him out. Under no circumstance can an improper batter becoming a runner give the batting team an advantage.

With a runner on second and first base open, the advance stands because the runner's advancement was not affected by the improper batter becoming a runner. However, if the runner's advancement to third is a result of a play being made on the improper batter-runner, he will be forced to return to second.

If a runner on second (with first base open) attempts to steal third on ball four to an improper batter and is thrown out, the out stands and the proper batter is also out.

If a runner on first overslides second base on ball four to an improper batter and is thrown out, the out stands and the proper batter is also out.

In the strikeout/wild pitch scenario, the runners were forced to advance and would return to their bases at time of pitch, but it's irrelevant because the proper batter is the third out. Since the putout goes to the catcher it can be assumed that the proper batter is considered to be put out before he reaches first base.

In the strikeout/wild pitch scenario with less than two outs, the batter is out, so the runners are not forced and do advance because the pitch being strike three does not affect their advancement.

If there is a force play at second with less than two outs, the out at second stands and the proper batter is also out, because the rule for batting out of turn contains no provisions for returning runners who have been put out to their time-of-pitch base.

If there is a force play at second with two outs, or a double play that does not involve the batter-runner with one out, the only person ruled out is the proper batter because otherwise four outs would be recorded in the inning.

All scenarios assume that there is an improper batter and that an appeal is made. I am not an umpire but I know the rule and know how to enforce it.

Jaksa/Roder says this for BOOT:

"The proper batter is called out. This out supersedes an out of the improper batter, and if such improper batter was not out and became a runner, he is removed from his base (6.07b1)

Any runner who advanced because of the improper batter's batted ball or award must return to his TOP base. A runner who advanced for some other or additional reason (wild pickoff throw, overthrow, wild pitch, balk) is allowed his advance (6.07b2)

Any runner who became out during the continuous action must return to his base ; his out is nullified. Any outs gained independently of the improper batter becoming a batter-runner (steal pickoff, etc.) will stand."

As I recall, under FED, the outs stand

[bsaucer]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

In the strikeout/wild pitch scenario, the runners were forced to advance and would return to their bases at time of pitch, but it's irrelevant because the proper batter is the third out. Since the putout goes to the catcher it can be assumed that the proper batter is considered to be put out before he reaches first base.

But if first and second bases are empty, and R3 runs home, is his run nullified by the proper batter being called out before reaching first base?

Actually, the proper batter is out without becoming a runner. Is that the same as being put out before reaching first?

I guess it would, if a clean strikeout (caught, or strike hitting the runner stealing home) would nullify a run on the third out.

[bsaucer]

Let's look at it this way... If a pitch results in an improper batter completing "his" turn at bat, and the appeal is made, then all runners are returned to their bases at the time of pitch. Is that correct?

Of course that would nullify any advance on a wild pitch, passed ball, stolen base, and also nullify any outs made on runners caught stealing, if these events occur on that pitch.