Ball out of play

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

Arencibia great catch. He did not fall into the dugout. He stayed on his feet the entire catch. He caught the ball and negotiated the railing without falling. Catch and carry. He is allowed to come out throwing.
I found the clip on MLB at ATL@TOR

Except for "catch and carry", this is all correct.

[Robert E. Harrison]

I have always thought of the catch and carry rule as: If the field catches the ball with at least one foot in LBT or jumped from LBT and maintains his footing in DBT he can come out throwing. If he falls, then the ball is dead and runners advance. He did enter the dugout after making the catch and came out with the ball.

Just as an aside: FED rules do not allow catch and carry. The ball is dead immediately and one base award if unintentional and 2 base award if intentional.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

I have always thought of the catch and carry rule as: If the field catches the ball with at least one foot in LBT or jumped from LBT and maintains his footing in DBT he can come out throwing. If he falls, then the ball is dead and runners advance. He did enter the dugout after making the catch and came out with the ball.

Just as an aside: FED rules do not allow catch and carry. The ball is dead immediately and one base award if unintentional and 2 base award if intentional.

You've got the rule right, but the terminology backward.

"Catch and carry" is when you catch it in LBT, securing the out, but then carry it into DBT, giving any runners a base.

Arencibia caught it, but did not fall, and can throw it out, as you stated --- because he did NOT "catch and carry".

[Manny A]

Here's the link. Sorry, but I don't know how to embed videos.

Video | MLB.com Multimedia



The appropriate OBR rule is 5.10(f):

[It's a dead ball] "When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field. As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04(c) shall prevail.

"If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril."

There is no such thing as "catch and carry" under OBR. I believe this only exists in FED ball (not sure about NCAA).

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by Manny A

...(not sure about NCAA).

NCAA is similar to OBR, only difference is that if the player slides purposefully into DBT and stands up while in DBT, he is not considered to have fallen.

[Manny A]

Since we're on the subject, and because I don't have my references handy, is there a requirement to properly tag up on the 7.04 situation?

For example, suppose Arencibia did fall into the dugout after making the catch. R1 and R2 would have been awarded one base. But once the award is made, do they need to go back and tag up if they were off the base during the catch?

My gut tells me they do. After all, the ball was legally caught.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Since we're on the subject, and because I don't have my references handy, is there a requirement to properly tag up on the 7.04 situation?

For example, suppose Arencibia did fall into the dugout after making the catch. R1 and R2 would have been awarded one base. But once the award is made, do they need to go back and tag up if they were off the base during the catch?

My gut tells me they do. After all, the ball was legally caught.

Absolutely.

[RonTberry]

Coach not an umpire so I don't pretend to know rules as well as you guys. But why would they have to tag up if its an automatic award for a rule violation? Wouldn't it be similar to throwing a ball into stands or dugout? I know it was caught in air but if they can advance without liability to be out out why the need to tag. Thanks in advance for your answers. Always trying to learn more.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RonTberry

Coach not an umpire so I don't pretend to know rules as well as you guys. But why would they have to tag up if its an automatic award for a rule violation? Wouldn't it be similar to throwing a ball into stands or dugout? I know it was caught in air but if they can advance without liability to be out out why the need to tag. Thanks in advance for your answers. Always trying to learn more.

Because even though you are awarded a base (whether through a situation like this one, or obstruction, or a ground rule double, etc), you are still required to run the bases properly. In this situation, if the runner was awarded home, and failed to retouch third, then when they are ready to begin play again the defense would still be allowed to appeal the runner having left the base early (before the catch), and the runner would be out. It would be the same as if on a ground rule double the batter-runner simply skipped first base and ran straight to 2nd - the defense could appeal the miss of first base.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RonTberry

Coach not an umpire so I don't pretend to know rules as well as you guys. But why would they have to tag up if its an automatic award for a rule violation? Wouldn't it be similar to throwing a ball into stands or dugout? I know it was caught in air but if they can advance without liability to be out out why the need to tag. Thanks in advance for your answers. Always trying to learn more.

An "award" is really "the right to run the bases without the defense making a play." You still need to comply with the base running rules.

For example, on a home run, you need to touch all the bases, and you can't pass another runner (and in FED you can't commit MC).

I agree that the rules *could* be written differently (it's an award -- just go there; if the award is home just go to the dugout), but they aren't.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by RonTberry

Coach not an umpire so I don't pretend to know rules as well as you guys. But why would they have to tag up if its an automatic award for a rule violation? Wouldn't it be similar to throwing a ball into stands or dugout? I know it was caught in air but if they can advance without liability to be out out why the need to tag. Thanks in advance for your answers. Always trying to learn more.

Because of OBR 7.08d "Any runner is out when; He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play."

and

Rule 7.05(i) Comment: "The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases. For example: batter hits a ground ball which an infielder throws into the stands but the batterrunner
missed first base. He may be called out on appeal for missing first base after the ball is put in play even though he was “awarded” second base.

If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base."


Bottom line here is because the rules say so..

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by RonTberry

Coach not an umpire so I don't pretend to know rules as well as you guys. But why would they have to tag up if its an automatic award for a rule violation? Wouldn't it be similar to throwing a ball into stands or dugout? I know it was caught in air but if they can advance without liability to be out out why the need to tag. Thanks in advance for your answers. Always trying to learn more.

You have to run the bases properly no matter what. That's why HR hitters have to circle the bases rather than just going to the dugout.