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-   -   Ball out of play (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/95157-ball-out-play.html)

Jdotmozy Wed May 29, 2013 01:12am

Ball out of play
 
With Arencibia catching that foul ball then falling into the dugout why is this rule never enforced?

Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

Jdotmozy Wed May 29, 2013 01:18am

2013/05/28 Arencibia's great catch - YouTube

APG Wed May 29, 2013 01:28am

Two things:

1.) It's more convenient for most if you embed YouTube and other clips when possible.

2.) I don't believe your clip is available in the United States. This message pops up whenever you click on the link: "The uploader has not made this video available in your country."

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 08:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jdotmozy (Post 895806)
With Arencibia catching that foul ball then falling into the dugout why is this rule never enforced?

Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

Since your video doesn't work here, can you describe the play? We see the rule you refer to enforced all the time.

Jdotmozy Wed May 29, 2013 08:31am

Sorry posting from Japan. YouTube Arencibia great catch. If not... with 1 out and s runner on 2nd Heyward fouled off a ball towards the jays bench, Arencibia makes the catch by the railing of the dugout and falls in. Clearly dead ball territory. Yet the base runner is not awarded third. The jays announcers even mention him coming back out of the dugout so the runner doesn't advance.

I know the call is made at the high school level, not sure how its enforced at ncaa, But I can't ever recall that rule enforced during a MLB game.

Robert E. Harrison Wed May 29, 2013 09:02am

Great Play by Arencibia and legal
 
Arencibia great catch. He did not fall into the dugout. He stayed on his feet the entire catch. He caught the ball and negotiated the railing without falling. Catch and carry. He is allowed to come out throwing.
I found the clip on MLB at ATL@TOR

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 09:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jdotmozy (Post 895835)
Sorry posting from Japan. YouTube Arencibia great catch. If not... with 1 out and s runner on 2nd Heyward fouled off a ball towards the jays bench, Arencibia makes the catch by the railing of the dugout and falls in. Clearly dead ball territory. Yet the base runner is not awarded third. The jays announcers even mention him coming back out of the dugout so the runner doesn't advance.

I know the call is made at the high school level, not sure how its enforced at ncaa, But I can't ever recall that rule enforced during a MLB game.

Describe "falls in"... the MLB catch and carry rule you quote only applies in the dugout when they actually FALL... as in, do not remain on their feet. Obviously it also applies when they land in the stands over a railing, etc. It is the latter that we see called quite regularly.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 09:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison (Post 895841)
Arencibia great catch. He did not fall into the dugout. He stayed on his feet the entire catch. He caught the ball and negotiated the railing without falling. Catch and carry. He is allowed to come out throwing.
I found the clip on MLB at ATL@TOR

Except for "catch and carry", this is all correct.

Robert E. Harrison Wed May 29, 2013 09:17am

Catch and carry
 
I have always thought of the catch and carry rule as: If the field catches the ball with at least one foot in LBT or jumped from LBT and maintains his footing in DBT he can come out throwing. If he falls, then the ball is dead and runners advance. He did enter the dugout after making the catch and came out with the ball.

Just as an aside: FED rules do not allow catch and carry. The ball is dead immediately and one base award if unintentional and 2 base award if intentional.

Manny A Wed May 29, 2013 09:20am

Here's the link. Sorry, but I don't know how to embed videos.

Video | MLB.com Multimedia

<iframe src='http://wapc.mlb.com/shared/video/embed/embed.html?content_id=27520767&width=400&height=22 4&property=mlb' width='400' height='224' frameborder='0'>Your browser does not support iframes.</iframe>

The appropriate OBR rule is 5.10(f):

[It's a dead ball] "When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field. As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04(c) shall prevail.

"If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril."

There is no such thing as "catch and carry" under OBR. I believe this only exists in FED ball (not sure about NCAA).

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison (Post 895849)
I have always thought of the catch and carry rule as: If the field catches the ball with at least one foot in LBT or jumped from LBT and maintains his footing in DBT he can come out throwing. If he falls, then the ball is dead and runners advance. He did enter the dugout after making the catch and came out with the ball.

Just as an aside: FED rules do not allow catch and carry. The ball is dead immediately and one base award if unintentional and 2 base award if intentional.

You've got the rule right, but the terminology backward.

"Catch and carry" is when you catch it in LBT, securing the out, but then carry it into DBT, giving any runners a base.

Arencibia caught it, but did not fall, and can throw it out, as you stated --- because he did NOT "catch and carry".

tcarilli Wed May 29, 2013 09:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 895851)
...(not sure about NCAA).

NCAA is similar to OBR, only difference is that if the player slides purposefully into DBT and stands up while in DBT, he is not considered to have fallen.

Manny A Wed May 29, 2013 10:20am

Since we're on the subject, and because I don't have my references handy, is there a requirement to properly tag up on the 7.04 situation?

For example, suppose Arencibia did fall into the dugout after making the catch. R1 and R2 would have been awarded one base. But once the award is made, do they need to go back and tag up if they were off the base during the catch?

My gut tells me they do. After all, the ball was legally caught.

MD Longhorn Wed May 29, 2013 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 895866)
Since we're on the subject, and because I don't have my references handy, is there a requirement to properly tag up on the 7.04 situation?

For example, suppose Arencibia did fall into the dugout after making the catch. R1 and R2 would have been awarded one base. But once the award is made, do they need to go back and tag up if they were off the base during the catch?

My gut tells me they do. After all, the ball was legally caught.

Absolutely.

RonTberry Thu May 30, 2013 09:20am

Coach not an umpire so I don't pretend to know rules as well as you guys. But why would they have to tag up if its an automatic award for a rule violation? Wouldn't it be similar to throwing a ball into stands or dugout? I know it was caught in air but if they can advance without liability to be out out why the need to tag. Thanks in advance for your answers. Always trying to learn more.


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