Time of pitch or time of throw?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Ia-Ref

This is blatantly incorrect.
How?

Please enlighten us (or maybe just me) with your knowledge.

I believe it's just you. Look at the other posts.

The first play is the FIRST play. First attempt to throw or tag a runner out. "First" has a pretty easy to understand meaning. "First" doesn't mean "all of the things that happen before X and Y happen"... it means first.

The most common example of this happening, actually, flies right in the face of the insane interpretation you gave us. R1, Grounder to short, who throws to 2nd for the easy force (this would be the FIRST play). F4 then throws toward first for the double play and sails it into the stand. This would NOT be the first play ... it's the second play. By your "definition", this second play would somehow also be another first play.

[Manny A]

In Ia-Ref's defense, the rules themselves are not very clear when a "first play" ends. Just as an example of where confusion could come from, look at the Definition of "Double Play" in OBR:

"A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts."

Similar language is found in the Definition of "Triple Play". It's also found in the Exception under 4.06 on when a run doesn't score:

"A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases."

We know you can have multiple plays during unrelaxed action where the 4.06 Exception applies. But it only refers to "a play".

So without a real definition of "Play" as it pertains to attempts to retire runners, I can see where folks may feel that a "first play" starts when a pitcher delivers a pitch or throw, and ends when all unrelaxed action is completed. It's only in the authoritative rule interpretations (MLBUM, J/R, etc. etc.) where you find the distinction.

What OBR needs is a Comment under 7.05g similar to what is found in the NCAA rule book:

"For the purpose of this rule, the act of fielding the ball or a faked or feinted throw is not considered a play; a 'play' must be a legitimate attempt by a fielder to retire a runner."

All that said, you are wrong, Ia-Ref. Trust us.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Similar language is found in the Definition of "Triple Play". It's also found in the Exception under 4.06 on when a run doesn't score:

"A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases."

We know you can have multiple plays during unrelaxed action where the 4.06 Exception applies. But it only refers to "a play".

A play is defined as an attempt to retire a runner. That's why we have a play, a DOUBLE play, or a TRIPLE play. The reason the exception states "a play" is the third out can be made at 1B, 2B, 3B, or on a runner trying to advance to one of the bases because of being forced.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

A play is defined as an attempt to retire a runner. That's why we have a play, a DOUBLE play, or a TRIPLE play. The reason the exception states "a play" is the third out can be made at 1B, 2B, 3B, or on a runner trying to advance to one of the bases because of being forced.

Your not hearing what I'm saying.

The definition of "play" in the rule book does not mention an attempt to retire a runner. It only says that's when an umpire makes the ball live. You have to find the other definition in authoritative interpretations. So those who don't have access to the interpretations may feel that one play starts on the pitch and ends when all action ends.

The definitions of Double and Triple Play tend to support that mistaken thought. They both say they are A PLAY where multiple runners are retired. In reality they are continuous action where multiple plays are made to retire two or three runners. But that's not how the rule book describes it.

And you can have multiple plays made where the 4.06 Exception kicks in. For example, two outs, bases loaded ground ball in the infield, throw to first gets away (Play 1), throw home to retire R1 is too late (Play 2), but the throw to third to retire the BR is there for the out (Play 3). And then the defense successfully appeals that the BR missed first. No runs score under the Exception that the rule book describes as A PLAY.

That's my point. The rule book muddies the water on what a play really means.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

A play is defined as an attempt to retire a runner. That's why we have a play, a DOUBLE play, or a TRIPLE play. The reason the exception states "a play" is the third out can be made at 1B, 2B, 3B, or on a runner trying to advance to one of the bases because of being forced.

You don't have an umpire's understanding of the rules yet. You sound like a fan.

Keep working on it.

Rita

[Dave Reed]

Rita,
Have you confused nopachunts with Ia-Ref? There's nothing in nopachunts' statement that suggests he lacks an umpire's understanding.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Rita,
Have you confused nopachunts with Ia-Ref? There's nothing in nopachunts' statement that suggests he lacks an umpire's understanding.

Nope. His response to Manny's post says it to me.

Rita

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Nope. His response to Manny's post says it to me.

Rita

Rita C, I guess I was speaking in the wrong tone of voice. You are right, I am a baseball fan. I can watch any level baseball of pitched baseball and enjoy watching it. My favorite places to watch baseball is directly behind F2, or from A, B, C, or D. Been watching baseball from the field side of the fence since 1991. I hope I can change your mind.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Nope. His response to Manny's post says it to me.

Rita

Honestly, I think you're reading him wrong. IA_Ref is another story though.