Bases Loaded 2 outs Full Count Play

[onetime1]

Bases Loaded 2 outs Full Count Runners on the go with Pitcher in the Windup. Runner from 2nd gets an earlier break than the runner from 3rd. Runner from 2nd overruns 3rd and is thrown out by the catcher. The runner from 3rd is only half way down the line at the time of the tag. Does the run count?

[Dave Reed]

Yes,
7.04(b) Comment: A runner forced to advance without liability to be put out may advance past the base to which he is entitled only at his peril. If such a runner, forced to advance, is put out for the third out before a preceding runner, also forced to advance, touches home plate, the run shall score.

[Mrumpiresir]

I guess you are assuming the pitch was ball four, forcing all runners to advance, in which case the run scores.

The OP doesn't tell us what the pitch is. If it's strike three, no run can score.

[bob jenkins]

For FED, see 9.1.1C

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I guess you are assuming the pitch was ball four, forcing all runners to advance, in which case the run scores.

The OP doesn't tell us what the pitch is. If it's strike three, no run can score.

Lets assume it is strike three on the swing, ball in the dirt and for some stupid reason the catcher throws to third instead of tagging the plate or throwing to first. R2 overruns 3B and is tagged out off the bag before R3 touches home. Then the run does not count.

Your right though, "The OP doesn't tell us what the pitch is"

[MD Longhorn]

We don't know what the pitch is ... we also don't know what the ruleset is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

We don't know what the pitch is ... we also don't know what the ruleset is.

Does the rule set matter in this play?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Does the rule set matter in this play?

If it's a strike, it doesn't, but if this was a walk, in most rulesets the run scores (they treat the forced advance of the runner on third as an award, not simply a player advancing without liability to be put out). But (granted, it's been a couple of years, but the last I worked...) in both Pony and AL, they treated is this same way ASA softball does - the ball is live on a walk. If a runner is put out as in the OP, that's the 3rd out. The runner advancing home does so without liability, of course, but did not score before the 3rd out was made. No run.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

in both Pony and AL, they treated is this same way ASA softball does - the ball is live on a walk. If a runner is put out as in the OP, that's the 3rd out. The runner advancing home does so without liability, of course, but did not score before the 3rd out was made. No run.

Can you think of any ruleset in which the ball isn't live on a walk? Tee ball maybe.

I don't know about ASA, but American Legion uses OBR for this situation, and so does Pony-- assuming the pitcher is a player, and not a machine or coach.

Note to all: It is true the OP doesn't say if the pitch as an uncaught strike. He also doesn't say, for example, if there was umpire interference. Seems to me that we can assume that the OP would consider a uncaught 3rd strike as significant information and would have included it--especially since it takes poor play on the part of the catcher to try to get an out on an overrun of third base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Can you think of any ruleset in which the ball isn't live on a walk? Tee ball maybe.

I don't know about ASA, but American Legion uses OBR for this situation, and so does Pony-- assuming the pitcher is a player, and not a machine or coach.

Note to all: It is true the OP doesn't say if the pitch as an uncaught strike. He also doesn't say, for example, if there was umpire interference. Seems to me that we can assume that the OP would consider a uncaught 3rd strike as significant information and would have included it--especially since it takes poor play on the part of the catcher to try to get an out on an overrun of third base.

OK, so things changed since I worked those.

Yes, the ball is live on a walk... but there's no logic to the idea then that every runner is AWARDED their next base. If the ball is live (and it is), and runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out (they are), where's the logic that should score the run when an out occurs before that run? (Yes, I know, the rulesets all have interpretations that go that way ... but they defy the internal logic of the rest of the rules).

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

OK, so things changed since I worked those.

Yes, the ball is live on a walk... but there's no logic to the idea then that every runner is AWARDED their next base. If the ball is live (and it is), and runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out (they are), where's the logic that should score the run when an out occurs before that run? (Yes, I know, the rulesets all have interpretations that go that way ... but they defy the internal logic of the rest of the rules).

For OBR, per the MLBUM (2002)

Play: Two out, bases full, batter walks, but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base towards home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher before the runner from third has touched home plate.

Ruling: Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base.

[upprdeck]

so does the same logic apply of the trailing runner passes runner on 3rd before he scores?

[jicecone]

MD, I think your confusing interpretation with Rule.

Rule NFHS Def.2-2-1 says Awarded Base is "the right to advance without a play being made", "it is the responsibility of the runner to legally touch those bases".

This rule alone would result in a run being scored, whether R2 was tagged for over running 3B or not.

"but they defy the internal logic of the rest of the rules)".

Not sure what other rules this defy's.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by upprdeck

so does the same logic apply of the trailing runner passes runner on 3rd before he scores?

NOW the code matters.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

For OBR, per the MLBUM (2002)

Play: Two out, bases full, batter walks, but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base towards home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher before the runner from third has touched home plate.

Ruling: Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base.

Check it out, Rich... right over there. In the corner. It's my point --- you missed it.

(I'm completely aware of what the ruling is supposed to be on the field.)