Overturned Balk

[rbmartin]

As luck would have it, I just watched the Jim Evans balk video last night.
I don't think it was a balk.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

As luck would have it, I just watched the Jim Evans balk video last night.
I don't think it was a balk.

Elaborate, please.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Elaborate, please.

What rule, specifically, was broken? I see no balk here either.

The closest thing to a balk might be that he didn't gain (enough?) ground toward third on the first move. However, I don't think that is what U1 called, given the timing of the call. Looks like he's balking the move to first - and at the point of the move to 1st, the pivot foot has already come off.

PS - can't be a jabstep ... he's already an infielder after not throwing to third.

[Rich Ives]

Once completing the fake to 3B he completed the requirement to step off, throw(fake) or pitch. The "pitch" sequence is over.

This is why MLB is discussing a change in the rule.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

PS - can't be a jabstep ... he's already an infielder after not throwing to third.

But when he made his fake to third, he never disengaged his pivot foot from the rubber. His subsequent move to first looked just like a jab-step, because the pivot foot disengaged simultaneously as he was making the move to first. At least that's how it looked to me.

From 8.05(c): "However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

This pither, IMO, did not step off the rubber before making the move to first. He started his move to first with a jab-step, which comes simultaneously with the move.

[rbmartin]

The back foot clearly disengages the rubber before the feint to 1st. I think what makes the play look odd to some people is that during the feint to 3rd, there is no accompanting arm action. According to Jim Evans, this is not a requirement. An odd-looking play from the mound does not always equal a balk.

Next year this will be a balk in MLB if I read correctly. So use it while you can.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

The back foot clearly disengages the rubber before the feint to 1st. I think what makes the play look odd to some people is that during the feint to 3rd, there is no accompanting arm action. According to Jim Evans, this is not a requirement. An odd-looking play from the mound does not always equal a balk.

Next year this will be a balk in MLB if I read correctly. So use it while you can.

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

Comment Clarification: (j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base. Once legally positioned or set, the pitcher must keep both hands (gloved and bare) together until he pitches, attempts a pick-off or other play or steps off the rubber.

Excellent example: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14523967

Why is this a balk? http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=22128067

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by SAump

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

So we're just making up our own rules now....wonderful.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

I count six sentences above. Only the first is true, but it's not relevant to the play, and it's not a balk to step onto the rubber with the hands together.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But when he made his fake to third, he never disengaged his pivot foot from the rubber.

I honestly have no idea what you're looking at. Look at where his foot is at 1:04 and 1:05 of the video. Pretty standard disengagement there.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I honestly have no idea what you're looking at. Look at where his foot is at 1:04 and 1:05 of the video. Pretty standard disengagement there.

If it was standard, why did U1 balk it?

Seriously, it looked way too much like a jab-step. Most fake-to-third/fake-to-first moves I've seen have F1 disengaging the pivot foot during the step to third base, well before they turn to go to first.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If it was standard, why did U1 balk it?

Seriously, it looked way too much like a jab-step. Most fake-to-third/fake-to-first moves I've seen have F1 disengaging the pivot foot during the step to third base, well before they turn to go to first.

You can't jap step if you've already stepped to another base to feint a pickoff move. A jab step is to first base and is used in a regular pickoff at first when you have an R1 only.

This is not a balk. How much more do you want him to disengage it before he turns to first base? There isn't a specified distance that his pivot foot must go away from the rubber. He just has to disengage, which he does.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If it was standard, why did U1 balk it?

Well.. he was wrong, wasn't he?

Seriously, it looked way too much like a jab-step. Most fake-to-third/fake-to-first moves I've seen have F1 disengaging the pivot foot during the step to third base, well before they turn to go to first.

I'm trying hard to find "it looks like a jabstep" or even "it looks different than I'm used to" in my rulebook, and can't find it.

He CLEARLY disengages at 1:04-05 in the video. And not just by a little bit - his foot moves toward third by about half the length of the rubber. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But when he made his fake to third, he never disengaged his pivot foot from the rubber. His subsequent move to first looked just like a jab-step, because the pivot foot disengaged simultaneously as he was making the move to first. At least that's how it looked to me.

From 8.05(c): "However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

This pither, IMO, did not step off the rubber before making the move to first. He started his move to first with a jab-step, which comes simultaneously with the move.

I think you nailed him simulating a pickoff to third, but the other folks here seem to think he legally disengaged from the rubber. They claim Jim Evans says it legal, so it's legal, right?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by SAump

I think you nailed him simulating a pickoff to third, but the other folks here seem to think he legally disengaged from the rubber. They claim Jim Evans says it legal, so it's legal, right?

Why can't he feint to third? What is illegal about that?

It's legal because he disengages before throwing to first base. Can you show me where his foot was still on the rubber while he was throwing to first?