Overturned Balk

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

PS - can't be a jabstep ... he's already an infielder after not throwing to third.

But when he made his fake to third, he never disengaged his pivot foot from the rubber. His subsequent move to first looked just like a jab-step, because the pivot foot disengaged simultaneously as he was making the move to first. At least that's how it looked to me.

From 8.05(c): "However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

This pither, IMO, did not step off the rubber before making the move to first. He started his move to first with a jab-step, which comes simultaneously with the move.

[rbmartin]

The back foot clearly disengages the rubber before the feint to 1st. I think what makes the play look odd to some people is that during the feint to 3rd, there is no accompanting arm action. According to Jim Evans, this is not a requirement. An odd-looking play from the mound does not always equal a balk.

Next year this will be a balk in MLB if I read correctly. So use it while you can.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

The back foot clearly disengages the rubber before the feint to 1st. I think what makes the play look odd to some people is that during the feint to 3rd, there is no accompanting arm action. According to Jim Evans, this is not a requirement. An odd-looking play from the mound does not always equal a balk.

Next year this will be a balk in MLB if I read correctly. So use it while you can.

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

Comment Clarification: (j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base. Once legally positioned or set, the pitcher must keep both hands (gloved and bare) together until he pitches, attempts a pick-off or other play or steps off the rubber.

Excellent example: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14523967

Why is this a balk? http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=22128067

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by SAump

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

So we're just making up our own rules now....wonderful.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both hands together. So you guys are saying that if the pitcher steps off the front of the rubber with his hands together, it's not a balk. He steps off the rubber and does not legally feint to third. He is still ready to pitch when he wheels around to first base. That's a balk. Also, F3 isn't holding the runner on 1B, so holding the ball after making such a move is a balk!

I count six sentences above. Only the first is true, but it's not relevant to the play, and it's not a balk to step onto the rubber with the hands together.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I count six sentences above. Only the first is true, but it's not relevant to the play, and it's not a balk to step onto the rubber with the hands together.

Thank you for being gentle to the poster. I hope he gets it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But when he made his fake to third, he never disengaged his pivot foot from the rubber.

I honestly have no idea what you're looking at. Look at where his foot is at 1:04 and 1:05 of the video. Pretty standard disengagement there.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I honestly have no idea what you're looking at. Look at where his foot is at 1:04 and 1:05 of the video. Pretty standard disengagement there.

If it was standard, why did U1 balk it?

Seriously, it looked way too much like a jab-step. Most fake-to-third/fake-to-first moves I've seen have F1 disengaging the pivot foot during the step to third base, well before they turn to go to first.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If it was standard, why did U1 balk it?

Seriously, it looked way too much like a jab-step. Most fake-to-third/fake-to-first moves I've seen have F1 disengaging the pivot foot during the step to third base, well before they turn to go to first.

You can't jap step if you've already stepped to another base to feint a pickoff move. A jab step is to first base and is used in a regular pickoff at first when you have an R1 only.

This is not a balk. How much more do you want him to disengage it before he turns to first base? There isn't a specified distance that his pivot foot must go away from the rubber. He just has to disengage, which he does.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If it was standard, why did U1 balk it?

Well.. he was wrong, wasn't he?

Seriously, it looked way too much like a jab-step. Most fake-to-third/fake-to-first moves I've seen have F1 disengaging the pivot foot during the step to third base, well before they turn to go to first.

I'm trying hard to find "it looks like a jabstep" or even "it looks different than I'm used to" in my rulebook, and can't find it.

He CLEARLY disengages at 1:04-05 in the video. And not just by a little bit - his foot moves toward third by about half the length of the rubber. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

[bob jenkins]

I can see from U1's perspective where he might not have seen F1's pivot foot move to third (and break contact with the rubber). The move was directly away from U1 and by less than "several feet" so it might have been difficult to see the distance. PU and U2 would have a good view, and that's why it was corrected.

[jicecone]

U1 just finished backing up and then tried to peek around F3 . I don't he saw the pitcher disengage the plate and it seemed as though it was a hesitant call.

His doubt is what led to the conference.

No balk.

[ozzy6900]

There was no balk here and I do not understand why all of a sudden, the 3rd to 1st move is so difficult for people and umpires to deal with. It seems that I woke up one morning and the world turned stupid! It's a legal move designed to deceive the runner at 1st and getting an out.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

There was no balk here and I do not understand why all of a sudden, the 3rd to 1st move is so difficult for people and umpires to deal with. It seems that I woke up one morning and the world turned stupid! It's a legal move designed to deceive the runner at 1st and getting an out.

Is it that or fans don't like seeing it? Also, it helps to stop some of the deliberate delay. I'm just guessing if these may be reasons for getting rid of it. That and the fact that 99% of them are a waste of time b/c the pitchers give it away long before they even attempt it.

[jicecone]

MLB 8.01c
"At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural
pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw."

As long as he steps and gains distance, then disengages the plate, it doesn't matter where he ends up. It does not stipulate that the pitcher needs to clear the end of the plate.