Illegal Slide?

[umpjim]

The caseplay I cited states:

"R2 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play."

So at the start of the slide if the runner's intent was to break up the double play by not sliding to the base but at the fielder you have a FPSR violation. You can deduce this attempt by where the fielder slides. That the fielder bobbled the ball or didn't make a throw shouldn't make any difference.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by umpjim

The caseplay I cited states:

"R2 slides out of the base path in an attempt to prevent F4 from turning the double play."

So at the start of the slide if the runner's intent was to break up the double play by not sliding to the base but at the fielder you have a FPSR violation. You can deduce this attempt by where the fielder slides. That the fielder bobbled the ball or didn't make a throw shouldn't make any difference.

Yes, that is why I have only referenced the rule book with regard to the OP.

For your reference, a misplayed ball does make a difference. While a fielder is protected normally, it can be argued that his error caused the runner to make contact. That very play occured during an NCAA Super Regional last year. The runner was not guilty of interference. The NCAA supported the call.

In Fed ruled ball, I urge you to consider the throw that pulls a fielder into the path of a runner. The defensive error caused the contact and we don't penalize the runner for it, right?

[umpjim]

The OP was clarified by this:

"As part of the play, F4 had come across the base toward F6 / third. R1 slid toward the fielder, not in a direct line to the base. If F4 had caught the ball, it was a textbook FPSR violation by R1, whether or not there was contact. Does the fact that F4 dropped / deflected the ball change this and is contact (or not) relevant?"

I believe the caseplay justifies calling a FPSR violation on this attempt.

I agree with what you say about defensive error causing contact.

[MD Longhorn]

Obstruction.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Really? You said that?

In the OP, the runner did not interfere with the throw. The fielder deflected it - the play involves defensive error.

I'm not referring to the OP. In the OP, I would just have an illegal slide, and no FPSR.

My play was on 3-6-3 attempt at a DP when R1 went long and hard at the F6 as he came across the bag to outfield side. F6 was able to avoid the contact, but R1 had bad intent written all over his slide. I don't BS when it comes to player safety.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by umpjim

The OP was clarified by this:

"As part of the play, F4 had come across the base toward F6 / third. R1 slid toward the fielder, not in a direct line to the base. If F4 had caught the ball, it was a textbook FPSR violation by R1, whether or not there was contact. Does the fact that F4 dropped / deflected the ball change this and is contact (or not) relevant?"

I believe the caseplay justifies calling a FPSR violation on this attempt.

Then you would be incorrect. The rule book does not require a slide directly into the base. It can reached by a hand or foot. The rule has already been cited.

There cannot be a FPSR without the fielder having the ball - it is on the ground near the umpire's "B" position. The runner is not interfering with a defender's ability to relay the ball in the OP. He is not altering the play as the fielder already did that. The runner does not have to be clairvoyant, especially after he is already on the ground anticipating a slide away from the fielder (who then messes up and crosses into his path).

I agree with what you say about defensive error causing contact.

You originally wrote that it didn't matter. I am glad to see that you came around. Have a great day.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Obstruction.

Just to remind those new to the game, obstruction is ignored/superseded if the runner does not make a legal slide.

In the OP, I don't believe this to be the case since the fielder caused the ball to be where it is. Even with contact (not malicious), if the fielder could have reached the base with a hand or foot and didn't raise a leg/hand or otherwise impede the fielder, we have baseball. No one said it was supposed to be easy.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Then you would be incorrect. The rule book does not require a slide directly into the base. It can reached by a hand or foot. The rule has already been cited.

There cannot be a FPSR without the fielder having the ball - it is on the ground near the umpire's "B" position. The runner is not interfering with a defender's ability to relay the ball in the OP. He is not altering the play as the fielder already did that. The runner does not have to be clairvoyant, especially after he is already on the ground anticipating a slide away from the fielder (who then messes up and crosses into his path).

You originally wrote that it didn't matter. I am glad to see that you came around. Have a great day.

Are you saying that a legal slide on a FPSR can be a reach by hand or foot?

Are you saying that a fielder that hasn't gloved the ball or lost the ball because he was taken out illegally can't be protected by the FPSR?

The runner does not have to be clairvoyant. He should slide directly to the base. He knows a properly trained fielder will step to the 3B side(this is what the OP fielder was doing) or RF side or to the LF side (not in NCAA) of 2B to complete the throw. If the runner slides to one side or the other he probably is doing it to break up the DP.

As far as the obstruction posts go I have to say WTF.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Then you would be incorrect. The rule book does not require a slide directly into the base. It can reached by a hand or foot.

You are on crack.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Matt

You are on crack.

Yeah, change the Chore Boy too while you're at it!

The FPSR is either right at the base, or away from the fielder. Nothing about hand or foot reach. That sounds like something from OBR.

[DG]

We also don't know if he was sliding inside the bag to break up a DP. If F4 was on the RF side to receive a good throw but was drawn to other side due to bad throw from F6 after the runner started his slide away from F4 is he guilty of illegal slide? The op does not say why he was sliding inside the bag, but it does say there was a bad throw.

[Caesar's Ghost]

Thanks to all for the comments on this. Just like our discussions here, not much consensus, excpet that sliding toward the fielder with no contact is nothing in NCAA. It might be something in FED.

The most common answer (when there was contact) was to get one out for interference but not the second out because it wasn't a force play slide rule anymore. That was still not a majority answer, though.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

....not much consensus, excpet that sliding toward the fielder with no contact is nothing in NCAA. It might be something in FED.

How did you get that idea? The NCAA rule (quoted in post #24 of this thread) specifically says "with or without contact" in c(1). The actual qualifying factors are whether the slide "altered the play of the fielder" and if the slide was not directly to base.

The primary difference to FED is the NCAA rules allow the runner to overslide the bag.

[Caesar's Ghost]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

How did you get that idea? The NCAA rule (quoted in post #24 of this thread) specifically says "with or without contact" in c(1). The actual qualifying factors are whether the slide "altered the play of the fielder" and if the slide was not directly to base.

The primary difference to FED is the NCAA rules allow the runner to overslide the bag.

In NCAA, the slide toward the fielder must alter the play, with or without contact.

In FED, the slide toward the fielder is automatically illegal (at least by rule; how it's called might be different in some areas), whether it alters the play of the fielder or not, and with or without contact.

In my play, at least one of the options of it, there was no contact and no altering the play.