Last Play of the Game Question

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by starman

Thanks. I agree with you for NFHS. But I still think that the run counts in OBR.

Also, can you help me with some terminology. Are "Fed" rules = NFHS rules?

I am not an ump. Just a coach who learns a lot by reading this board.

Yes, FED = NFHS. Only in baseball (in my experience) do officials refer to NFHS rules as FED.

You're mistaken. The rule you cited was 4.09b, but that rule does not supersede 4.09a. No run can score when the third out of the inning is a force play. 4.09b simply specifies who must advance on a game ending play.

Others will be along presently to confirm this uncontroversial ruling, in case you don't believe me. And, good for you that you study the rules!

[Dave Reed]

This thread offers the reader incorrect rulings, starting with post #2. It seems to me that the posts by mbyron are inconsistent and confusing.

Here's what I believe to be the correct (and non-controversial) interpretation of the rules for bases loaded, bottom of the potential last inning.

All rule sets treat a batted ball in the same way, with no difference between OBR and FED/NCAA. All three rule sets make no distinction between the potential last inning and any other inning. All runners are subject to force outs and appeals.

OBR treats awards different to NCAA/FED, as detailed in 4.09(b).

In posts #15, #18, and #21, mbyron seems to be agreeing with the above synopsis. But in post #17, he seems to be justifying his wrong answer in #2 (which says OBR and FED rules are different for a batted ball) with a reference to the order of the appeals and citing a caseplay involving an award. In #23, he asserts that the principle and rule is the same for batted balls and awards, seemingly disagreeing with the JEA on this point. Finally, he says in post #25 that on a batted ball R1 and R2 can do whatever they want.

So, will the real mbyron please stand up?

[cookie]

Originally Posted by starman

Tie game, bottom of the last inning. Bases loaded one out. Hit to the OF. Runner scores and batter tags first. Suppose the runners on first and second never touch second and third. As players are leaving, the defense tags second and third asking for a inning ending double play (after the runner scores and the batter tags first). What is the correct ruling?

Since this situation involves a batted ball ("hit to OF") not an award, the appeal plays at 2nd and 3rd are still valid in OBR. R1 must touch second and R2 must touch 3rd - the bases to which they have been forced respectively. If an appeal is made on each runner (irrespective of order in this case where the play is relaxed), both appeals will be upheld and no runs will score. Game continues. The same would be for FED.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by cookie

Since this situation involves a batted ball ("hit to OF") not an award, the appeal plays at 2nd and 3rd are still valid in OBR. R1 must touch second and R2 must touch 3rd - the bases to which they have been forced respectively. If an appeal is made on each runner (irrespective of order in this case where the play is relaxed), both appeals will be upheld and no runs will score. Game continues. The same would be for FED.

Regarding my bolded part of this post, has this changed?

My latest BRD ruling #12 says order of appeals on forced bases matter. It quotes FED back in 2003 and PBUC in 2000. My 2010 WUM says the order doesn't matter if the force existed at the time of miss. 8.4.1.c. in the WUM.

[cookie]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Regarding my bolded part of this post, has this changed?

My latest BRD ruling #12 says order of appeals on forced bases matter. It quotes FED back in 2003 and PBUC in 2000. My 2010 WUM says the order doesn't matter if the force existed at the time of miss. 8.4.1.c. in the WUM.

My understanding (via Jacksa/Roder during relaxed action) is that if the force was in place when the missed base occurred, then the order doesn't matter as long as it's the 3rd out in order to negate any run(s) scored. I believe the example Jacksa/Roder gives has to do with R1 and R3, 1 out. Batter hits a double but misses 1st base. R1 missed second on the way to scoring. Defense starts the appeal of BR missing 1st base (upheld - out number 2) and then appeals R1 missing 2nd (upheld - out number 3, still considered a force out even though BR has been declared out for missing 1st base). Therefore, R3's run does not count.

HOWEVER, if R1 had missed 3rd base on his way to scoring and the appeals took place, then the order would matter. If the Defense starts the appeal with the BR missing 1st, then that would be the 2nd out (NOT the 3rd!), and then it appeals R1 missing 3rd base (upheld, 3rd out - not a force out). Therefore, R3's run counts.

IF the Defense starts the appeal with R1 missing 3rd, then that's the 2nd out. Then it appeals the BR missing 1st base (upheld - thus the 3rd out). Therefore, R3's run does not count as the BR made the 3rd out before reaching 1st.

PBUC follows the same format and I'm sure the same is true for FED (though I will start looking through the rule/case books starting with your citation 8.4.1.c).

Edited: Your cite is from the WUM, not FED casebook. my mistake on that (as I have just read the Fed casebook 8.4.1 c and it has nothing to do with appeals!)

[umpjim]

While the BRD cites Hopkins as saying that "When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in proper order.", the 2 plays given as examples are similar to your "However" play in that there is one miss of 1B and a non forced miss. The BRD rulings agree with what you say in this regard and the order does matter.
I probably read too much into the BRD Order of Appeals cite. Based on your JR and my WUM I agree with you that the order of appeals of multiple missed forced bases or forced and 1B does not matter.
Probably the only change is my new comprehension of the matter.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by umpjim

While the BRD cites Hopkins as saying that "When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in proper order.", the 2 plays given as examples are similar to your "However" play in that there is one miss of 1B and a non forced miss. The BRD rulings agree with what you say in this regard and the order does matter.
I probably read too much into the BRD Order of Appeals cite. Based on your JR and my WUM I agree with you that the order of appeals of multiple missed forced bases or forced and 1B does not matter.
Probably the only change is my new comprehension of the matter.

I would imagine Evans has the outs in the order they are called. At least that's what he explained to me on an unusual play that occurred.

[cookie]

Originally Posted by starman

Tie game, bottom of the last inning. Bases loaded one out. Hit to the OF. Runner scores and batter tags first. Suppose the runners on first and second never touch second and third. As players are leaving, the defense tags second and third asking for a inning ending double play (after the runner scores and the batter tags first). What is the correct ruling?

If the batted ball is thrown in from the outfield directly to 2nd base for a force out (unrelaxed action), then the order of put outs will matter as the force of R2 has been removed. R2 will now have to be tagged, but more than likely, by the time that has happened, R3 will have scored. And also R2's failure to touch 3rd base in this case now is not a force out, so R3's run counts. Game over.

If instead the batted ball is thrown directly from the OF to 3rd base, it's a force out on R2; and then, the ball is thrown directly to 2nd base, it's a force out on R1 - double play all during unrelaxed action whereby the side is retired on force outs; consequently, R3's run does not count. Game continues.

This is how Jaksa/Roder interpret 4.09b and 7.04b

[starman]

I think I did a bad job of wording my orignal question. How about this....

Bases Loaded, bottom of the last inning, tie game. OBR rules. Batter hits a ground ball to 3B. Defense turns what appears to be a 5-4 double play. However, the batter and runner on third are very fast. The run scores and the batter tags first before the out is recorded at 2B.

My interp of 4.09b is that the game was over before the out at second. The runs scores and the game is over. If the same thing had happened in the first inning, no runs scores. Am I wrong?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by starman

I think I did a bad job of wording my orignal question. How about this....

Bases Loaded, bottom of the last inning, tie game. OBR rules. Batter hits a ground ball to 3B. Defense turns what appears to be a 5-4 double play. However, the batter and runner on third are very fast. The run scores and the batter tags first before the out is recorded at 2B.

My interp of 4.09b is that the game was over before the out at second. The runs scores and the game is over. If the same thing had happened in the first inning, no runs scores. Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong. The 3rd out was a force play, so no runs can score, same as any other inning. This is not a time play. Extra innings.

Speaking of extra innings (begin thread hijack), I had my first extras of the summer the other night. Home team was up 2-0 in the top of the last inning. 2 outs, R1, R2, and the batter hits a ball to short right, a clear single. Should have been maybe 1 run scored, and when the next batter grounded out, game over, right?

It was a clear single to everyone but F9. He dove for it, the ball hit the ground literally 15 feet away from him, bounced over him, and rolled to the wall. 2 runs in, BR to 3B, tie game, and (after the next batter grounded out and the home team did nothing in their half) we have extra innings.

To add insult to injury: F9 came up in the bottom of the inning. Before a 1-1 pitch, he raised his hand and stepped out of the box: but my partner did NOT grant time! Strike 2! He was steamed about that. When the next pitch nipped the outside corner, he threw his bat against the fence and ejected himself. Presumably not his best inning of baseball.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, with apologies for the hijack and thanks for the venting.

[starman]

mbyron,

how is my play different than Padres/D-backs game that I posted above?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by starman

mbyron,

how is my play different than Padres/D-backs game that I posted above?

The MLB game involved a walk, where no advancing runner was liable to be put out. The rules require that the BR touch first and that (to score) R3 touch HP. At that point, the game is over: the other runners are not required to complete their award UNDER OBR.

Your play involved a batted ball with bases loaded, and the advancing runners were liable to be put out. The double play resulted in a 3rd out that was a force play. By rule, no runs can score.

[WWUmp]

Originally Posted by starman

I think I did a bad job of wording my orignal question. How about this....

Bases Loaded, bottom of the last inning, tie game. OBR rules. Batter hits a ground ball to 3B. Defense turns what appears to be a 5-4 double play. However, the batter and runner on third are very fast. The run scores and the batter tags first before the out is recorded at 2B.

My interp of 4.09b is that the game was over before the out at second. The runs scores and the game is over. If the same thing had happened in the first inning, no runs scores. Am I wrong?

My understanding of 4.09(b), "...the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base," only applies to game ending situations when the defense really has no chance at preventing the winning run from scoring.

For example, the defense won't be able to prevent a BB with bases loaded from scoring the winning run, or prevent a HB with bases loaded from scoring the winning run, or prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B. In these game ending situations, 4.09(b) does not require R1 or R2 to advance and touch the next base.

But starman's fact pattern does not describe a game ending situation. Therefore, 4.09(b) does not apply. The "exception" in 4.09(a) applies which states "...A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made... by any runner being forced out..." I don't think this is controversial. It's clear to me that the defense prevented the run from scoring (under 4.09(a)) by executing the double play (explained in starman's facts) to end the 1/2 inning and the game continues.

[cookie]

"...For example, the defense won't be able to...prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B."

I believe a HR (a batted ball) out of the park still requires R1 & R2 to touch 2nd and 3rd respectively. Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case...

[WWUmp]

Originally Posted by cookie

"...For example, the defense won't be able to...prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B."

I believe a HR (a batted ball) out of the park still requires R1 & R2 to touch 2nd and 3rd respectively. Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case...

Quite right. 4.09(b) applies to "awarded" bases and not on a batted ball. My bad.

"Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case..."

This is true on batted ball but not on a base award. R3 and R1 get their base regardless of what R1 & R2 do and as soon as R1 & R3 touch, game over. Also, there couldn’t be a time play with bases loaded and the runners advance as the result of an awarded base.