Dead Ball

[easygoer]

What is the correct call.

USSSA/MLB rules

Runner on 1st, batter hits the ball towards 2nd, the ball hits the baserunner advancing to second prior to the fielder attempting to field it, second baseman picks up the ball and throws to first in time to get the batter. Umpire calls runner out and calls the batter out as well.
Coach wants the batter awarded first base on a dead ball once it hit the runner??

Seems incorrect to me in this regard. If you have no outs runners on 1st and 2nd, runner on 1st is dead slow, ball hit towards short, perfect for double play, baserunner on 2nd realizes this and kicks the ball. He would be out but you would have runners on 2nd and 1st with only one out.

Just curious

Thanks

Easygoer

[Justme561]

Rule 7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.

(k) A fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches the runner after having been deflected by a fielder, the umpire shall not declare the runner out for being touched by a batted ball. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the fielder, and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball. If, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner deliberately and intentionally kicks such a batted ball on which the infielder has missed a play, then the runner shall be called out for interference.
PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE: The runner is out and the ball is dead.

[Mrumpiresir]

Originally Posted by Justme561

Rule 7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

(f) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.

(k) A fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder. If a fair ball goes through, or by, an infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him, or touches the runner after having been deflected by a fielder, the umpire shall not declare the runner out for being touched by a batted ball. In making such decision the umpire must be convinced that the ball passed through, or by, the fielder, and that no other infielder had the chance to make a play on the ball. If, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner deliberately and intentionally kicks such a batted ball on which the infielder has missed a play, then the runner shall be called out for interference.
PENALTY FOR INTERFERENCE: The runner is out and the ball is dead.

You didn't supply the rule that applies to the OP. You would be correct in the case of a runner "willfully and deliberately" interfering with a batted ball or fielder. But the OP doesn't say this. So the ball is dead, the runner is out and the batter is awarded first base. The offensive coach was correct that the batter is not out.

Read rule 6.08(d).

[rbmartin]

The only reason the batter would also be called out is if in the umpires judgement the interference was a deliberate attempt to break up an impending double play. HTBT

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

But the OP doesn't say this. So the ball is dead, the runner is out and the batter is awarded first base. The offensive coach was correct that the batter is not out.

The OP doesn't say either way. If we're charitable to the BU and assume he was right, he must have ruled that R1 willfully and deliberately contacted the ball in order to break up a DP.

I'd rather assume that the umpire was right than that the coach was. I don't think that's a 50-50 proposition.

[Mrumpiresir]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The OP doesn't say either way. If we're charitable to the BU and assume he was right, he must have ruled that R1 willfully and deliberately contacted the ball in order to break up a DP.

I'd rather assume that the umpire was right than that the coach was. I don't think that's a 50-50 proposition.

I think we are in agreement that if R1 was simply running to second and was hit, the batter would be awarded first. If the umpire judges a deliberate attempt to interfere and break up a double play, we should get two outs.

I didn't read into the OP that it was deliberate. When the original poster said "sounds incorrect to me", I was wanting to point out that without a deliberate intent to interfere, the batter would indeed be awarded first base.

[easygoer]

Thanks for the clarification. The runner hitting the ball was not intentional, not sure he could have done it on purpose if he wanted to.
Seems strange to award the batter first in this situation because the play was completed. I can see how it could go differently and I would want to argue that it is a dead ball. The ball again hits the runner unintentionally and goes into the outfield allowing the batter to advance to second or third, if I were on defense I would be ticked.
Why could this not be handled like a balk, delayed dead ball with the offense given the option. Balk but the pitch is made, ball is hit out of the park, play is accepted. Hell maybe that isn't correct either.

Thanks

Easygoer

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by easygoer

... Balk but the pitch is made, ball is hit out of the park, play is accepted. Hell maybe that isn't correct either.
Easygoer

In FED rules this too is incorrect. It's a no-pitch regardless of how much the offense wants to keep the play.
In OBR you may elect to keep the result of the play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by easygoer

Seems strange to award the batter first in this situation because the play was completed. I can see how it could go differently and I would want to argue that it is a dead ball.

No judgment is required on this one: once you rule runner interference, the ball is dead immediately. Nothing afterward ever happened on that play, no matter where the ball ended up.

If the runner did not interfere willfully and deliberately, then the batter is awarded 1B. You can't call him out, and you can't send him back to the plate: what else are you going to do with him?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

In FED rules this too is incorrect. It's a no-pitch regardless of how much the offense wants to keep the play.
In OBR you may elect to keep the result of the play.

Not exactly in OBR.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

In FED rules this too is incorrect. It's a no-pitch regardless of how much the offense wants to keep the play.

Right answer, but slightly misleading. After a balk in FED the ball is dead immediately. So the pitch can't happen, and there's no play for the offense to want to keep.

That's different from OBR, where the pitch can happen and be nullified (for a true "no-pitch") if the offense fails to advance everyone.

Subtle distinction, perhaps, but that's why we get the big money!

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Not exactly in OBR.

Correct, The batter and all base runners must advance 1 base. Thanks.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Correct, The batter and all base runners must advance 1 base. Thanks.

I think his point included the fact that the offense never has a choice on a balk. If the BR and every runner fail to reach their advance base on the play, then the batter returns and the balk is enforced. No choice.

I expect you know this, but for newer umpires it can be confusing to remember what penalties permit a coach a choice.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I think his point included the fact that the offense never has a choice on a balk. If the BR and every runner fail to reach their advance base on the play, then the batter returns and the balk is enforced. No choice.

I expect you know this, but for newer umpires it can be confusing to remember what penalties permit a coach a choice.

Correct. I should have worded my response more precisely.