An interesting force out/obstruction

[RPatrino]

In regards to the OP, if the obstruction occurred after R2 was put out then you don't have obstruction, right? BUT, this would have been Type A (OBR) had you ruled the runner, absent the obstruction, could have beat the throw to the bag on the force out. So, you have to 'umpire' in this case, and use your best judgement based on the situation.

In type B (OBR only!) you have the option to penalize as to nullify the act of obstruction, again, having to 'umpire' and award or NOT award based on that. In FED, you have no option, you penalize at least one base.

So, I would put it 'that way' for Type B obstruction for the OBR rule set only.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

In regards to the OP, if the obstruction occurred after R2 was put out then you don't have obstruction, right? BUT, this would have been Type A (OBR) had you ruled the runner, absent the obstruction, could have beat the throw to the bag on the force out. So, you have to 'umpire' in this case, and use your best judgement based on the situation.

In type B (OBR only!) you have the option to penalize as to nullify the act of obstruction, again, having to 'umpire' and award or NOT award based on that. In FED, you have no option, you penalize at least one base.

So, I would put it 'that way' for Type B obstruction for the OBR rule set only.

NO!

If you rule obstruction he gets the base. No woulda-shoulda on type A.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If you're talking to me, my point is that it's impossible to hinder a retired runner.

The play was being made on a runner who was obstructed. Basic type a definition is it not?

[RPatrino]

Rich, my point was/is. If you rule obstruction on this play, it is Type A, and you would award R2 third. There is no 'shoulda/woulda' on Type A. Dead ball, award a base. The judgement factor is WHEN did THIS obstruction occur? Before/simultaneously or after the out?

[thumpferee]

And if it happens at the same time, tie goes to the runner!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The play was being made on a runner who was obstructed. Basic type a definition is it not?

Not if he's a retired runner at the time of the hindrance. If the runner bumps into F5 5 seconds after the ball has been thrown back to F1, are you still asking for obstruction, coach?

Of course, the hindrance might have happened first: all I'm saying is that the umpire has a judgment to make about which happened first.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

And if it happens at the same time, tie goes to the runner!

I was waiting for this one! Good one!

[MD Longhorn]

So ... you incorrectly rule Type B and say the runner wouldn't have made 3rd. OK. Then you want to put R2 back on 2nd. With R1? Interesting. I guess the next pitch begins with R1, R2a and R2b...

[celebur]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Rich, my point was/is. If you rule obstruction on this play, it is Type A, and you would award R2 third. There is no 'shoulda/woulda' on Type A. Dead ball, award a base. The judgement factor is WHEN did THIS obstruction occur? Before/simultaneously or after the out?

But your previous post implies something quite different than that:

Originally Posted by RPatrino

In regards to the OP, if the obstruction occurred after R2 was put out then you don't have obstruction, right? BUT, this would have been Type A (OBR) had you ruled the runner, absent the obstruction, could have beat the throw to the bag on the force out. So, you have to 'umpire' in this case, and use your best judgement based on the situation.

The bolded part implies that the judgement is whether or not the runner would have beaten the play had there been no obstruction. (You may not have intended that, but that's how it reads.)

[RPatrino]

Please feel free to disregard the original post.

Thank You.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The play was being made on a runner who was obstructed. Basic type a definition is it not?

Nope, coach:

The out was recorded/ play was made on a runner who LATER was "obstructed" separately from the play/ out.

There is no rule penalizing the hinderance of a RETIRED runner who continues to run the bases, and in fact, NOTHING the defense does AFTER Rx is out can make him "UNout" or entitle him to any base award.

[mbyron]

Carter, the OP says the OBS happened at the "very same moment" that the out was recorded. As usual, we have to judge which happened first. It might well be the OBS, in which case, I'm sure both of us would enforce the penalty.

But you're restating my point regarding the other possibility: it's impossible to obstruct a retired runner.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

Nope, coach:

The out was recorded/ play was made on a runner who LATER was "obstructed" separately from the play/ out.

There is no rule penalizing the hinderance of a RETIRED runner who continues to run the bases, and in fact, NOTHING the defense does AFTER Rx is out can make him "UNout" or entitle him to any base award.

It wasn't "later". Read the OP.

" . . F5 fields the ball and steps on 3rd for the force out, BUT at the very same moment, F6 ran into R2 . . "

I understand your point. I don't think you understand mine. There was a play being made on the runner that was obstructed.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

It wasn't "later". Read the OP.

" . . F5 fields the ball and steps on 3rd for the force out, BUT at the very same moment, F6 ran into R2 . . "

I understand your point. I don't think you understand mine. There was a play being made on the runner that was obstructed.

I understand your point [as does mbyron]; I KNOW you don't understand ours [well, ok, mine, so's I don't tar mb w/ my brush] - there ARE NO TIES IN BASEBALL - at least not when I'm explaining a call to Skippy. One thing ALWAYS happens before OR after another, NEVER "at the same instant".

If I called your "obstructed" runner out on the force, then the out happened BEFORE the obstruction, and "obstruction" on a retired runner is a nullity.

If I have Obstruction on the runner which happens BEFORE the force out is made, then - yep, Type A, enforce the penalty, ball is dead at the instant of the obstruction, the out never happend, award the base.

We are never going to have a useful discussion about what to do if the out and the obstruction "happen at the same instant", because, in Baseball, that is impossible.