Foul Tip in Dirt

[nafxos]

Before I get to my question, I just want to say that I enjoy this forum immensely. I'm a relatively new umpire (certified last year), and this is my first season working HS-level games (sub-varsity only so far). I've learned a lot just browsing the various threads, and am trying to apply it wherever I can.

Anyway, I was working the bases last Friday and was in the B position with 2 outs in the bottom of the last inning. With 2 strikes the batter fouls one towards the dirt. F2 holds up his glove to show the PU that he caught it before it hit the ground, but there's no call either way. Instead he points to me to ask what I have.

At that point, I honestly don't know what I just saw. I didn't see the ball hit the ground. But I can't say with certainty that I saw F2 pick it cleanly either. All I know is I have to make a call. And I better make it emphatically. So I did. (Not telling yet which way I went.)

Is there a preferred "default" position on something like this? (if it was a checked swing appeal and I'm in B, I'm defaulting to "no swing" unless I'm absolutely certain the batter swung) Should I have erred on the side of the batter? Or the catcher? Or is it a case of "when in doubt, get an out"? And does it matter that in this case the out would have ended the game?

[MD Longhorn]

Step one. Shoot your partner.

Step two - if you don't see an out, don't call an out.

Step three - shoot again to make sure he's dead.

If this appalling situation happens in my game, I'm coming up with a loud foul ball call, then having an interesting post game later.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by nafxos

Before I get to my question, I just want to say that I enjoy this forum immensely. I'm a relatively new umpire (certified last year), and this is my first season working HS-level games (sub-varsity only so far). I've learned a lot just browsing the various threads, and am trying to apply it wherever I can.

Anyway, I was working the bases last Friday and was in the B position with 2 outs in the bottom of the last inning. With 2 strikes the batter fouls one towards the dirt. F2 holds up his glove to show the PU that he caught it before it hit the ground, but there's no call either way. Instead he points to me to ask what I have.

At that point, I honestly don't know what I just saw. I didn't see the ball hit the ground. But I can't say with certainty that I saw F2 pick it cleanly either. All I know is I have to make a call. And I better make it emphatically. So I did. (Not telling yet which way I went.)

Is there a preferred "default" position on something like this? (if it was a checked swing appeal and I'm in B, I'm defaulting to "no swing" unless I'm absolutely certain the batter swung) Should I have erred on the side of the batter? Or the catcher? Or is it a case of "when in doubt, get an out"? And does it matter that in this case the out would have ended the game?

I like to think of it as a catch unless I have some evidence (visual/audio) that it hit the ground.

On the check swings, I go with my first instinct. If my immediate reaction is that the batter offered, I go with that and I don't care what position I'm in -- A,B, C, D, E, I, E, I, O.

Your partner hung you out to dry. His call to make, not yours. If you have something, you're going to come in and kill it (if it hits the ground). Most crews have a base umpire give a signal in this situation -- to let the plate guy know if the BU has a catch or the ball hitting the ground.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by nafxos

Before I get to my question, I just want to say that I enjoy this forum immensely. I'm a relatively new umpire (certified last year), and this is my first season working HS-level games (sub-varsity only so far). I've learned a lot just browsing the various threads, and am trying to apply it wherever I can.

Welcome aboard! Glad to have you here.

Anyway, I was working the bases last Friday and was in the B position with 2 outs in the bottom of the last inning. With 2 strikes the batter fouls one towards the dirt. F2 holds up his glove to show the PU that he caught it before it hit the ground, but there's no call either way. Instead he points to me to ask what I have.

The smart aleck response is to point back at him. What I would do is get together with him and tell him you did not have it definitively either way. It is primarily his call to make and one you can offer information on but if you don't have it, the call goes back to him. In this case, if neither of you are sure, the safe answer IMO is to call it foul.

(if it was a checked swing appeal and I'm in B, I'm defaulting to "no swing" unless I'm absolutely certain the batter swung)

FWIW, I'd go the other way. Unless you're 100% certain the batter did check his swing, ring up the strike.

Hope this helps, please keep participating and asking questions. Good luck to you.

[jicecone]

Sometimes the natural movement of the players makes the call for you and you can use it as a read on what to call. Your partner may have hung you out to dry because he didn't know any better. You were both working JV or middle school game to gain the experience to move up. These are the type of things that can be used as a learning experience. Take the positive side and discuss with your partner after the game and both could learn something to move on with. After 25+ years I still learn things

Taking the smart-aleck approach may make the point to your partner but, it makes the officiating team look bad. I have seen too many officials forget that they are part of a team.

Bottom line here is you make the call based upon what you see. If your partner doesn't like your call then tell them not to work with you next time. 99.9% of officals will respect that approach. The others , you don't to work with.

[nafxos]

Thanks for the feedback.

I did make a "thanks for putting me on the spot" comment to my partner after the game, but I said it with a smile. At the time, I wasn't certain if he had screwed up or if it was something I should have been more ready for. And he had 10 years of experience to my 1, so I probably erred too much on the side of deferring to him.

As for the actual call, I rang the batter up. Strike 3. Game over. Nobody on the offense complained, so I think I got it right.

And I'm still not going to call too many check-swing appeals as strikes from B or C, especially if the batter has his back to me. If the PU didn't think it was a swing, it's not like I have a better view.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by nafxos

Thanks for the feedback.

I did make a "thanks for putting me on the spot" comment to my partner after the game, but I said it with a smile. At the time, I wasn't certain if he had screwed up or if it was something I should have been more ready for. And he had 10 years of experience to my 1, so I probably erred too much on the side of deferring to him.

As for the actual call, I rang the batter up. Strike 3. Game over. Nobody on the offense complained, so I think I got it right.

And I'm still not going to call too many check-swing appeals as strikes from B or C, especially if the batter has his back to me. If the PU didn't think it was a swing, it's not like I have a better view.

As someone with 25 years of experience, let me tell you that you're completely wrong. You can make the same judgment from B or C as the plate guy can behind the plate. You have a few advantages -- there's no chance you're going to be blocked and you don't have a pitch to track.

The mindset of not calling a swing from the middle is very old school and most good umpires have discarded it. If you judge that the batter offered (and I still suggest you use your first instinct), go with it. Why penalize the defense because you don't want to make that call?

[nafxos]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

As someone with 25 years of experience, let me tell you that you're completely wrong. You can make the same judgment from B or C as the plate guy can behind the plate. You have a few advantages -- there's no chance you're going to be blocked and you don't have a pitch to track.

The mindset of not calling a swing from the middle is very old school and most good umpires have discarded it. If you judge that the batter offered (and I still suggest you use your first instinct), go with it. Why penalize the defense because you don't want to make that call?

I'll think about it. I have a hard time believing I can get a good look at a lefthanded batter's check swing from B. Or a righhander from C. But I'm open to the idea.

That said, I do remember in my certification class a veteran ump making it pretty clear that 99 times out of 100 you shouldn't overturn your partner's "no swing" call from B or C.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by nafxos

And I'm still not going to call too many check-swing appeals as strikes from B or C, especially if the batter has his back to me. If the PU didn't think it was a swing, it's not like I have a better view.

Please don't make this your default position. You will find 25-year guys who will tell you that's how they call, but this mentality has gone by the wayside. You DO have a better view. If partner asks, make your best judgement call. Period. Granted - if you're not sure, they didn't swing. But if you think they swung, and are asked, then they swung.

PS - welcome to the board. I want to add this - I currently work in an association the brought in about 10 rookies this year. ONE of them reads this board - and that is the one that will likely make it in the long run. It shows you care and it shows you want to learn.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by nafxos

I'll think about it. I have a hard time believing I can get a good look at a lefthanded batter's check swing from B. Or a righhander from C. But I'm open to the idea.

You'd be surprised. Righty from D or lefty from A, and I get your point... but B and C are perfectly good locations to determine whether the batter offered or not. And you do not have 12 things all happening at once to worry about like PU does.

That said, I do remember in my certification class a veteran ump making it pretty clear that 99 times out of 100 you shouldn't overturn your partner's "no swing" call from B or C.

I completely believe that. And the fact that he called it "overturning" tells me volumes about his mentality. You are not "overturning" anything. You are answering your partner's request for help. As your partner, if I request your help, I'm expecting to get your help, and not just going through the motions for appearances sake.

[kylejt]

On a dropped third strike, I've got a pre-set signal if I think the ball was caught or not. I use a closed fist, if caught, or open hand, if not, right at my belt buckle. It's just some discrete help for the PU, if he chooses to use it.

On a foul ball in the dirt, that the PU didn't call, I've got to be 100%. If I am, I'm going to kill it. If I didn't kill it, don't bother asking me.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by nafxos

And I'm still not going to call too many check-swing appeals as strikes from B or C, especially if the batter has his back to me. If the PU didn't think it was a swing, it's not like I have a better view.

You may not have a view to see the barrel of the bat in relation to the batter's body but that is only one method that may be used to determine if a batter offered. It is actually not that difficult to tell from inside whether or not a batter offered at a pitch because what you are judging is if he made an attempt or not. That's it.

Originally Posted by nafxos

That said, I do remember in my certification class a veteran ump making it pretty clear that 99 times out of 100 you shouldn't overturn your partner's "no swing" call from B or C.

That's terrible advice and I would discard it immediately.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

step one. Shoot your partner.

Step two - if you don't see an out, don't call an out.

Step three - shoot again to make sure he's dead.

If this appalling situation happens in my game, i'm coming up with a loud foul ball call, then having an interesting post game later.

+1

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

On the check swings, I go with my first instinct. If my immediate reaction is that the batter offered, I go with that and I don't care what position I'm in -- A,B, C, D, E, I, E, I, O.

Same here. I have no problem determining if a batter offered at a pitch from any position. In fact E-I-E-I-O is my favorite.

[nafxos]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That's terrible advice and I would discard it immediately.

Thanks.

It hasn't even come up in a live game yet. But I'll make sure I stick with calling what I see when asked.