3rd Strike In The Dirt

[NewUmpinCT]

New ump here (2nd year) and I (base ump) had a situation arise in a JV game with a more veteran partner (6 yrs plate ump).

No outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. Batter swings at strike 3 in dirt and runs towards first base. The catcher takes off after the batter/runner and tags him out about 45 feet up 1st base line. I hesitated making a call because my partner should have called the batter out immediately as 1st base was occupied and it was not 2 outs. Runner from 3rd started to come home, but went back to 3rd. Runner on 1st never started to advance.

Next batter... basically the same thing occurs (arrrrgggghhhh in my head, but not out loud.) This time catcher throws to first base - again I hesitated but make out signal. Runner on first never advanced again, but R3 scored on play.

In between innings, I went to discuss both scenarios with my partner and he agreed he blew the call on loudly insisting batter is out. No problem there, however, the defensive coach comes over and rants about blow call allowed run to score in a close game... He did also say so after the 2nd strike 3 in the dirt. I never uttered a word, letting my partner explain everything to the coach. He did own up to the fact that he should have yelled batter out.

In that event, nothing could be done because the catcher should know the rules in my eyes and shouldn't have bothered throwing to first. Correct?

Then 3rd hypothetical situation (discussed after game with partner): Bases loaded, 2 outs. Strike 3 in dirt to batter. He advances towards first legally this time. Catcher does NOT throw to first but tags home to "put out" R3 as he is "forced" to run towards the plate. Can this be done OR does the catcher have to throw the batter/runner out at first?

Also, I know catcher interference on a pitched ball (catcher's glove is hit by swinging bat) is an award of 1st base for the batter. What if the catcher pops up and I the plate ump don't see it, (note there was also a foul tip to the backstop on the play) but the batter and offensive coach are going crazy... I did not award anything because I couldn't and didn't see it.

Any help or comments appreciated...

Thanks everyone.

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

In between innings, I went to discuss both scenarios with my partner and he agreed he blew the call on loudly insisting batter is out. No problem there, however, the defensive coach comes over and rants about blow call allowed run to score in a close game...

How, exactly, did he blow this call? While its good preventive umpiring to say "he's out" in this situation, it is incumbent upon the players to know the situation and the relevant rule. Don't confuse failing to use preventive umpiring and extending courtesies with blown calls, the two are different.

[NewUmpinCT]

Thanks TCar... Bad choice of wording (ducking that left hook), but in my teachings I was told to just let it be known by saying batter is out. Eliminates any doubt although I know the players and coaches need to know the rules also.

And yes it actually happened two batters in a row... Never can tell what you will see in HS ball...

But on the bases loaded scenario 2 outs, the catcher can't simply tag home can he?

[tcarilli]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

But on the bases loaded scenario 2 outs, the catcher can't simply tag home can he?

Yes.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

But on the bases loaded scenario 2 outs, the catcher can't simply tag home can he?

Yes he can

We have bases loaded 2 outs and the batter became a runner on an uncaught third strike.

The runners by the fact that the batter became a runner are forced to advance, hence all F2 needs to do is touch home plate.

It's no different then if B1 hit the ball to F4 who simply stepped on second base to get the force out on R1.

Pete Booth

[NewUmpinCT]

Guys thanks for clearing that up in my mind. I didn't look at it that way and I didn't actually see it in the NFHS rule book (unless I missed it... Is it referenced there?)

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

New ump here (2nd year) and I (base ump) had a situation arise in a JV game with a more veteran partner (6 yrs plate ump).

No outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. Batter swings at strike 3 in dirt and runs towards first base. The catcher takes off after the batter/runner and tags him out about 45 feet up 1st base line.

I agree with Tc. It's F2's responsibility to know the rule. By yelling "He's out, he's out" you are basically coaching and giving advantage to defense. At the JV level F2 should darn well know thisrule.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

I hesitated making a call

You have no call to make.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

because my partner should have called the batter out immediately as 1st base was occupied and it was not 2 outs.

Did he signal strike?
I never verbalize strike on a swinginging strike 3 out unless it's a check swing strike.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

Next batter... basically the same thing occurs (arrrrgggghhhh in my head, but not out loud.) This time catcher throws to first base - again I hesitated but make out signal.

At this point you legitimized f2's action by signaling out. There was no call for you to make.
It was you and not PU that may have caused the confusion on this one.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

Runner on first never advanced again, but R3 scored on play.

Good heads up play by R3

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

In between innings, I went to discuss both scenarios with my partner and he agreed he blew the call on loudly insisting batter is out. No problem there, however, the defensive coach comes over and rants about blow call allowed run to score in a close game... He did also say so after the 2nd strike 3 in the dirt. I never uttered a word, letting my partner explain everything to the coach. He did own up to the fact that he should have yelled batter out.

He certainly could have yelled but I don't. He may as well be yelling "first base occupied don't throw it"
I use the same mechanic on all swinging strike 3 outs. No verbal and bring the hammer down accross my body.
Swinging strike 3s in the dirt I use the same non verbal mechanic as all other non strike 3 calls.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

Then 3rd hypothetical situation (discussed after game with partner): Bases loaded, 2 outs. Strike 3 in dirt to batter. He advances towards first legally this time. Catcher does NOT throw to first but tags home to "put out" R3 as he is "forced" to run towards the plate. Can this be done OR does the catcher have to throw the batter/runner out at first?

It's a force out at the plate. Touch of HP is all that's necessary.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

(note there was also a foul tip to the backstop on the play) but the batter and offensive coach are going crazy... I did not award anything because I couldn't and didn't see it.

Don't want to be nit picky, but as an ump you need to know the lingo.
Foul tips cannot go to back stop.
Foul tips by definition are caught. Foul balls go to the back stop.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

I know catcher interference on a pitched ball (catcher's glove is hit by swinging bat) is an award of 1st base for the batter. What if the catcher pops up and I the plate ump don't see it, (note there was also a foul tip to the backstop on the play) but the batter and offensive coach are going crazy... I did not award anything because I couldn't and didn't see it.

You can't award for an action you did not see. Typically I've found that it is obvious when the catcher's glove is hit by the bat. It's a distinct sound. However, you can always ask your partner if he saw anything (in a closed meeting). Chances are he'll not see anything so you have a foul ball.

-jsoh

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

the catcher should know the rules

Coaches and other players should also know the rules.

[Rcichon]

CO ump articulated your sitch perfect.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

I hesitated making a call because my partner should have called the batter out immediately as 1st base was occupied and it was not 2 outs.

No he shouldn't. It's a swinging strike 3. No verbal on that. It's the same mechanic as a caught (swinging) 3rd strike.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

In between innings, I went to discuss both scenarios with my partner

Not a good time to do that. Wait a few innings or discuss it in your post-game.

Originally Posted by NewUmpinCT

the defensive coach comes over and rants about blow call allowed run to score in a close game... He did also say so after the 2nd strike 3 in the dirt.

Bad defense allowed the run to score, nothing else.

If you get into the bad habit of calling the batter out on a dropped 3rd strike when he cannot advance, sooner or later you will do it with 2 outs when he can attempt to advance. Call the strike. That's the only call that needs to be made.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No he shouldn't. It's a swinging strike 3. No verbal on that. It's the same mechanic as a caught (swinging) 3rd strike.

Not a good time to do that. Wait a few innings or discuss it in your post-game.
Bad defense allowed the run to score, nothing else.

If you get into the bad habit of calling the batter out on a dropped 3rd strike when he cannot advance, sooner or later you will do it with 2 outs when he can attempt to advance. Call the strike. That's the only call that needs to be made.

I think you'll find that your "silence" approach has been changed to announcing the out by many umpire associations since the Eddings play a couple of years back.

[TussAgee11]

I don't say a word on a routine swining caught third strike. Just hammer it in like I do every other routine swinging strike.

However, if the ball is close the dirt, the catcher NEEDS to know what you have called. Remember, he can't see you.

What I do, and this is in accordance with other MLB umps, is hammer it in if it is caught, and give a low verbal to the catcher saying "catch".

If the ball hits the dirt, give a safe sign (before any strike is indicated). Also verbalize no catch so the batter and catcher can know what you have called.

On a check swing 3rd strike in the dirt, things can get tricky. A point at the batter exclaiming "Yes, he did!" followed by your safe mechanic and verbalizing softly (No-Catch) is accepted now.

Remember, batter and catcher can not see your mechanics. Something must be verbalized so they know what you have called. It is not "coaching", it is umpiring. Informing players of what you have called.

What would I tell you if on a close play at second I just didn't give any mechanic or verbal? Well, that is what you are doing to the catcher and batter if you don't give a verbal on a D3K.

Edited to add:

In the OP sitch, the umpire does not need to verbalize anything unless we had a check swing. A simple strike mechanic is all that is necessary. Because there is no way that this batter is not OUT, we don't need to say anything. F2, batter, and coaches should all know he is out. F2 is at fault for taking the batter's bait, intended or not.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

What I do, and this is in accordance with other MLB umps, is hammer it in if it is caught, and give a low verbal to the catcher saying "catch".

"Other?"

[thumpferee]

What's so hard with "batter's out, batter's out"!?

If a guy is out anywhere else we verbalize it. Now all of a sudden players and coaches should know when someone is out or not and it us up to them to know better?

Don't blame them, make the call when there is a call to be made!