Batter Runner proceeds to second with R1 on first.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

VoiceOfLG:

Your situation is the ideal example of why it is idiotic for a HC to require "Charlie Hustle" actions by his players.

It has been my experience that on deep fly balls to the outfield, B/R almost always touches 1B before the ball is caught. Therefore, in the Original Play (OP), if B2 has passed R1 before F8 caught the Fly Ball he would already had been out.

That said, whether B2 is out before or after he passes R1, NFHS Casebook Play 8.3.3 Situation I allows B2 to act in a manner that could induce the defense to make a play on a Retired Runner. The B/R knows he is out and he should get off the field in the most direct manner that will not interfere with anyother defensive play being made.

MTD, Sr.

This is more along the lines I was referring to in the first place, but then all the rocket surgeons/brain scientists started nit picking. I sort of read the OP to mean the batter was digging hard to 2B as if he was R1 trying to tag up, and go to 2B. From there the thread started steadily snowballing downhill.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I thought we had a no-quoting-the-troll policy around here! My ignore can't work if you keep it up, Steve.

That said, the quoted posts make me happy to have left the ignore on. Dumberer and Dumbererer. Someone should remind TB that there's a REASON for the mechanics we are supposed to use. There's no reason to make an audible call at all on an obvious play. Like the new guy in our association who likes to verbally call foul on every tap back to the screen or out of play. Might as well wear a hat that says ROOKIE instead of TASO (or whatever your local hats say). All you're doing by verbalizing the catch on a routine play is notifying coach that you are clueless, and that can't be conducive to having a good day out there.

Your ignore is working. You're as ignorant as they come.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by yawetag

It's my hope my partner isn't watching the same baseball I am. If I'm watching the baseball, I hope he's watching the runners. In any fly ball that I have catch/no catch responsibility, I'm letting my partner know the status: "That's a catch, Steve." or "It's down, Steve." On a tag-up chance, I might even say "Touch, Steve" when the ball is touched.

You say these things when you are the BU with your back to your partner? I do my responsibilities too, but I always know the status of the baseball. You don't give that responsibility away just because you have other responsibilities. Yes, as the PU, I will say those first two things when the BU is starting in A and busting in on the play. That is because the BU is running with his back to the baseball. Plus, we are only talking here about a can of corn to F8. That subject hasn't changed as far as I'm concerned, because that is what I have been predicating my responses on.

It is still BOTH umpires responsibility to know what is happening with the baseball, because nothing can happen without it. No, if I don't have the ball responsibility, then I don't stare down the ball, but I sure don't ever wait for my partner to tell me what is happening with it, I make sure I know for myself..

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

This is more along the lines I was referring to in the first place, but then all the rocket surgeons/brain scientists started nit picking. I sort of read the OP to mean the batter was digging hard to 2B as if he was R1 trying to tag up, and go to 2B. From there the thread started steadily snowballing downhill.

Actually, as in reality, all the real umpires started correcting you, and you get all sorts of pissed off when that happens, as we know. You are the one who posted a link to a lice ridding website. Real classy. Aside from your childish posts, this thread is doing quite nicely.

[Caesar's Ghost]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

What? Oral signal to your partner? Never heard of this one. I hope my partner never feels the need to do anything orally with me.

Why on earth would your partner need a "verbal" signal when he is watching the same baseball that you are watching?

"Hey partner, he just caught the ball, in case you are looking at that woman in the stands and not the play."

Oral means spoken. Verbal means with words so it could be written or spoken. I work in a profession where the difference matters. Sorry the precision isn't (apparently) impoirtant to you.

And, of course I'm talking about plays where the partner needs to know but isn't watching the ball. Most common with no runners on and when PU has the ball -- "that's a catch, Steve" lets your partner know that he can peel off and head back to A.

Used it last night with R1 and R3 and a ball in the V. As I (as PU) was headed toward third and glancing back to see R3 touch the plate, I heard my partner say "That's a catch, Caesar" and I didn't have to continue to third, pick up the runner and the ball, etc.

(And, frankly, your post and others by both Steve's in this thread is why I don't visit or participate more, here.)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

Oral means spoken. Verbal means with words so it could be written or spoken. I work in a profession where the difference matters. Sorry the precision isn't (apparently) impoirtant to you.

And, of course I'm talking about plays where the partner needs to know but isn't watching the ball. Most common with no runners on and when PU has the ball -- "that's a catch, Steve" lets your partner know that he can peel off and head back to A.

Used it last night with R1 and R3 and a ball in the V. As I (as PU) was headed toward third and glancing back to see R3 touch the plate, I heard my partner say "That's a catch, Caesar" and I didn't have to continue to third, pick up the runner and the ball, etc.

(And, frankly, your post and others by both Steve's in this thread is why I don't visit or participate more, here.)

So, "of course" you were talking about a completely different situation than the one being discussed, and we were supposed to know this how? Yes, in the situation with no runners and the BU is busting in on the play, you are correct. But this was not what was being discussed, and is what you must not have understood. We were discussing the BU making the call with R1, not the PU with no runners. You said in reply to Tyler:

"You do need to tell your partner. On a can of corn, it's an oral signal to your partner and no signal. But on a routine out at first (by more than a couple of steps) its a signal and no oral call.

The first part of this is incorrect, when talking about the BU with R1. There is no oral/verbal signal from the BU on a can of corn when the BU is in the middle of the diamond. That was my point.

I am sorry that MY precision is not important to YOU.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Actually, as in reality, all the real anally retentive umpires started correcting you, and you get all sorts of pissed off when that happens, as we know. You are the one who posted a link to a lice ridding website. Real classy. Aside from your childish posts, this thread is doing quite nicely.

Fixed that fer ya'.

[lawump]

Professional mechanics:

No signal and no verbal (a/k/a "spoken") statement given when the catch is a "can of corn". [It only takes giving a catch signal and saying "catch" once on a can-of-corn on the professional level to hear some player/coach/manager say "no ****" (or something similar) to you.]

It is okay to say, "Jim, got a catch". [Where "Jim" is your partner.]

Both umpires should be watching the ball. However, the umpire(s) who have responsibility for any runner(s) should glance at the runners. "Watch the ball, glance at the runner(s)!" I teach several clinics a year with a former instructor at one of the umpire schools and he has told me that that phrase is repeated every day for six weeks at school.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

Oral means spoken. Verbal means with words so it could be written or spoken. I work in a profession where the difference matters.

Mirriam-Webster on line.

Verbal.

3. Spoken rather than written



Want to argue about what "rather than" means?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Caesar's Ghost

Oral means spoken. Verbal means with words so it could be written or spoken.

Uhhhh, incorrect. And I just wrote that, I didn't verbalize it.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by lawump

Professional mechanics:

No signal and no verbal (a/k/a "spoken") statement given when the catch is a "can of corn". [It only takes giving a catch signal and saying "catch" once on a can-of-corn on the professional level to hear some player/coach/manager say "no ****" (or something similar) to you.]

It is okay to say, "Jim, got a catch". [Where "Jim" is your partner.]

Both umpires should be watching the ball. However, the umpire(s) who have responsibility for any runner(s) should glance at the runners. "Watch the ball, glance at the runner(s)!" I teach several clinics a year with a former instructor at one of the umpire schools and he has told me that that phrase is repeated every day for six weeks at school.

I did some some checking, and this is the mechanic at pro school. Since I never aspire to attend pro school, and 95% of my training is at the FED level, this has never came up. However, it kind of blurs my mind that the reason for this mechanic is to possibly avoid a stupid snide comment. To me, it equates to the casual out signal when a batter is out by 20ft. Anyway, if they do say something similar, it gives me the chance to use my patented head and eye roll mechanic.

Thanks, lawump, for providing an answer other than, "Because I said so."

[SanDiegoSteve]

There is always the popular "because it's the right answer" answer too.

I believe the casual out signal when the batter is out by 20ft. is because there is a possibility that F3 was not quite on the base, and a nonchalant signal reaffirms that the BR was truly out, and nothing funny happened. On a can of corn, there is no other outcome than out if the fielder reaches in and pulls the ball out, so no need for a signal.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

There is always the popular "because it's the right answer" answer too.

I believe the casual out signal when the batter is out by 20ft. is because there is a possibility that F3 was not quite on the base, and a nonchalant signal reaffirms that the BR was truly out, and nothing funny happened. On a can of corn, there is no other outcome than out if the fielder reaches in and pulls the ball out, so no need for a signal.

Since you got an A in logic in college, you should know your analogy makes no sense. If you're an F3, and too stupid to touch the base when a batter is out by 20ft, you need to grab some pine time, and watch and learn how the game is played.

Did this play happen to you? I remember you mentioning what a stellar standout (what else is new?) at the position you were.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Oh, ignore list, how I love thee. Let me count the ways. Ignoring the most ignorant is bliss.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Oh, ignore list, how I love thee. Let me count the ways. Ignoring the most ignorant is bliss.

I doubt it. You're like the punch drunk boxer who doesn't hear the bell at the end of each round, and keeps coming back for more.