Balk or not

[UmpJM]

Michael,

The only explanation I've ever come across that describes the "point of the dogma" is that it somehow facilitates the learning of the balk rules.

That never made sense to me.

Perhaps there's another "point" of which I am unaware?

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Michael,

The only explanation I've ever come across that describes the "point of the dogma" is that it somehow facilitates the learning of the balk rules.

That never made sense to me.

Perhaps there's another "point" of which I am unaware?

JM

Tee gave it: eliminate phantom balks.

Now perhaps you'd answer my question?

[UmpJM]

Tim and Michael,

I characterized the "philosophy" as "dogmatist", and the argument "specious and semantic" because:

1. The pitcher in the video clearly and unequivocally balked while attempting to make a pick-off move on the R2. (I say it this way because I expect that neither of you would disagree with this way of characterizing it.)

2. The pitcher's initial movement did NOT commit him exclusively to delivering a pitch. It committed him to either delivering a pitch OR making a pick-off move to 2B. Had there been an R3 - or had the R2 been advancing - he would have also had the legal option of making a move to 3B.

3. And, to be honest about it, I was intentionally being "provocative". Hey, sometimes I just can't help it.

In my experience (which I stipulate is significantly less than either of yours), I have never seen a "phantom balk" called on a pitcher making a move towards 2B - though, to be fair, I have seen a number of coaches who wanted such a call, typically because the move was "awkward".

Balks are the hardest calls for newer umpires to make. I can't help wondering if the practical effect of teaching the IITBTSB philosophy is that it makes umpires hesitant to call balks that ARE committed rather than reducing phantom calls.

JM

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Tim and Michael,

2. The pitcher's initial movement did NOT commit him exclusively to delivering a pitch. It committed him to either delivering a pitch OR making a pick-off move to 2B. Had there been an R3 - or had the R2 been advancing - he would have also had the legal option of making a move to 3B.

JM

J.M.

I respectively disagree, he most clearly commited himself to the pitch. He did not step directly toward second base. This balk is/was taught at at the college level. It's an effective balk move that a pitcher can get away with and often do. Just as the jump turn is more times than not a balk, that rarely gets called. This picher clearly brings his leg up then half to three quarters down before he changes direction toward 2B. Absouletly a balk. I was one of those that would argue you could balk to 2B. In reality you can't. I agree with the others, the balk had nothing to do with 2B.

[Steven Tyler]

Jouquin Benoit did a jump turn in the playoffs against the Rangers and it wasn't called.

Bring on the Cardinals anyway.

OTOH-Get rid of that stupid rule about home team advantage in the World Series. As hard as they try, the All-Star game sucks for the most part. Getting less entertaining than the Pro Bowl that not many players want to play in.

[clevbrown]

Thanks guys for the feedback. I am learning a lot about balks this season and I appreciate your help.

An observation regarding the video, the announcer kept saying the balk was called because of the hesitation. I really thought the balk should have been because he did not step toward 2nd or home. Instead he stepped with his left foot about 6 inches from the rubber toward the 3rd base side. At that point he had not disengaged from the rubber with his pivot foot. So, I would call balk for not stepping toward ho e or 2nd. Would that make sense?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

J.M.

This picher clearly brings his leg up then half to three quarters down before he changes direction toward 2B. Absouletly a balk.

Coach JM (correctly) says "The INITIAL move does not commit him to pitch." By "initial move" he means the leg raise. You are now talking about lowering the leg. Since that lowering is not toward second, I agree that this prohibits him from throwing (or feinting) to second.

Originally Posted by clevbrown

Thanks guys for the feedback. I am learning a lot about balks this season and I appreciate your help.

An observation regarding the video, the announcer kept saying the balk was called because of the hesitation. I really thought the balk should have been because he did not step toward 2nd or home. Instead he stepped with his left foot about 6 inches from the rubber toward the 3rd base side. At that point he had not disengaged from the rubber with his pivot foot. So, I would call balk for not stepping toward ho e or 2nd. Would that make sense?

He balked multiple times. Award the runner home.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Jouquin Benoit did a jump turn in the playoffs against the Rangers and it wasn't called.

It wasn't a balk.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Just as the jump turn is more times than not a balk, that rarely gets called.

How do you figure?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Matt

It wasn't a balk.

Originally Posted by Matt

How do you figure?

Yes. What is illegal about a jump turn as long as it gains ground toward the base?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes. What is illegal about a jump turn as long as it gains ground toward the base?

It is considered a move from the rubber.

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by Matt

How do you figure?

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes. What is illegal about a jump turn as long as it gains ground toward the base?

Matt, as Steve said here, as long as he gains distance toward first, it's legal. Obviously, with a jump turn, F1 has the directional part of the rule covered. What you will see is the non-pivot foot often lands behind the pivot foot, away from the base, hence, not gaining distance nor direction, therefore a balk.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Coach JM (correctly) says "The INITIAL move does not commit him to pitch." By "initial move" he means the leg raise. You are now talking about lowering the leg. Since that lowering is not toward second, I agree that this prohibits him from throwing (or feinting) to second.

I agree Bob, it's not the raising of the leg, it's his downward motion that commits him to the pitch, again, it wasn't a direct step toward 2B. Sorry, J.M., if I mis-understood your post, I agree, it's not the initial movement.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Matt, as Steve said here, as long as he gains distance toward first, it's legal. Obviously, with a jump turn, F1 has the directional part of the rule covered. What you will see is the non-pivot foot often lands behind the pivot foot, away from the base, hence, not gaining distance nor direction, therefore a balk.

I'm having trouble understanding your worry. The free foot has to gain distance and direction toward 1B relative to where it was when F1 came set. I don't think you can do a jump turn toward 1B and fail to accomplish this.

The most common balk during a jump turn might be failing to throw to 1B.