Courtesy Runner

[harmbu]

Last night in a FED game, the opposing team took the lead in the top of the sixth when their best pitcher (who had been playing shortstop) got a double to drive in the go-ahead run. The coach wanted his pitcher to warm up to take the mound in the bottom of the inning. He told the umpires that he was going to change pitchers and that he wanted to use a courtesy runner. Both umpires told him that he could do so. I told them that I did not think this was legal since the player in question was not the pitcher when the inning started. The coach simply pinch ran for the player and re-entered him to pitch in the bottom of the inning.

Please give me a rule reference as to whether I am right or wrong about this situation.

[zm1283]

It is not legal. I don't have my rule book with me for a reference.

This is a projected substitute, which you can't do. Only the player that was the pitcher or catcher when the team last played defense can be ran for.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by zm1283

It is not legal. I don't have my rule book with me for a reference.

This is a projected substitute, which you can't do. Only the player that was the pitcher or catcher when the team last played defense can be ran for.

Correct-a-mundo! Projected subs are not allowed under FED rules 3-1-1.

[jicecone]

I agree, courtsey runners are to be used only for the pitcher or catcher of record, as per the teams last last half inning on defense. Both 3.1.1 and "Suggested Speed-Up Rules" pg 84 NFHS 2011.

[Rich Ives]

Casebook 3.1.1 Situation N says you can't do this with the catcher so it stands to reason (reason ??) you can't with the pitcher.

The rationale is that it's a projected sub.

The BS is that, as both are already in the lineup, they are not subs.

Nonetheless FED says you can't do that.

[DG]

Its not BS if you have speedy gonzales on the bench and you want to put him in to replace a "projected" pitcher for next inning. Projected pitcher could "pitch' to one batter and be replaced. Or, never pitch due to injury that comes up during warmups.

Chicanery and thus the rule.

Since the SS was his best pitcher he was likely not pulling one, unless player he wanted to run was much faster (entirely possible). His sub and re-enter was certainly within rules and perhaps smart. I doubt he did it just to get a few more warmups for "projected" pitcher, although SS's are not usually slow afoot.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by DG

Its not BS if you have speedy gonzales on the bench and you want to put him in to replace a "projected" pitcher for next inning. Projected pitcher could "pitch' to one batter and be replaced. Or, never pitch due to injury that comes up during warmups.

Chicanery and thus the rule.

Since the SS was his best pitcher he was likely not pulling one, unless player he wanted to run was much faster (entirely possible). His sub and re-enter was certainly within rules and perhaps smart. I doubt he did it just to get a few more warmups for "projected" pitcher, although SS's are not usually slow afoot.

The BS is that they call it a "projected substitution" but as both players are already in the game it isn't a substitution.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by harmbu

Last night in a FED game, the opposing team took the lead in the top of the sixth when their best pitcher (who had been playing shortstop) got a double to drive in the go-ahead run. The coach wanted his pitcher to warm up to take the mound in the bottom of the inning. He told the umpires that he was going to change pitchers and that he wanted to use a courtesy runner. Both umpires told him that he could do so. I told them that I did not think this was legal since the player in question was not the pitcher when the inning started. The coach simply pinch ran for the player and re-entered him to pitch in the bottom of the inning.

Please give me a rule reference as to whether I am right or wrong about this situation.

During the "season" not legal. Right now "fall ball" is going on. Very informal. We're playing Fed. Rules but many teams will bat everyone, free subs, etc. If that's how you're playing allow it. If you're playing strictly fed rules don't allow it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

During the "season" not legal. Right now "fall ball" is going on. Very informal. We're playing Fed. Rules but many teams will bat everyone, free subs, etc. If that's how you're playing allow it. If you're playing strictly fed rules don't allow it.

This is awful advice. If your league tells you to allow it, allow it. If your league is silent on the subject, don't.

Otherwise you're simply allowing a "courtesy runner" (i.e. a speedster at the most critical moment) for whoever the manager feels like running for... you have no way to enforce that the person being run for actually does pitch the following inning, and no rule to back you up if manager decides instead to use a different pitcher (and he may have perfectly good reasons to NOT use the pitcher he thought he was going to use when he told you that). And if you allow it in the early innings, how can you fail to allow it in a potential last inning of the game, where manager could just say, "If we DO play another inning, the girl on 2nd base is going to pitch," regardless of whether another inning is even possible.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This is awful advice. If your league tells you to allow it, allow it. If your league is silent on the subject, don't.

I don't see the difference between what you say and what Gordon said. Maybe it's just in the "formality" of the ball in different locations.

[MD Longhorn]

The difference is that he says if the league is using free subs in Fall ball, that we should also, without say-so from the league, allow wanton abuse of the courtesy runner rule.

My league is using free subs for fall ball. There's no way in HE*& any umpire I know would allow a coach to "CR" for the shortstop, solely because at that specific moment he thinks he'll be moving SS to P after the inning ends.

My point --- if your league doesn't address this SPECIFICALLY, you are erring in assuming they want this rule abused. Lacking direction from the league, I think it's a huge mistake to allow this.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

The difference is that he says if the league is using free subs in Fall ball, that we should also, without say-so from the league, allow wanton abuse of the courtesy runner rule.

My league is using free subs for fall ball. There's no way in HE*& any umpire I know would allow a coach to "CR" for the shortstop, solely because at that specific moment he thinks he'll be moving SS to P after the inning ends.

My point --- if your league doesn't address this SPECIFICALLY, you are erring in assuming they want this rule abused. Lacking direction from the league, I think it's a huge mistake to allow this.

Either way, the coach says, "Speedy Gonzales is going to run for the shortstop" and the next inning the shortstop re-appears on defense.

And, at least here, the coach wouldn't even say anything -- the runner (whether sub or "cr") would just go out (assuming time was called, etc.)