courtesy runner for the DP????

[slowballbaker]

Need help on this one umpires.....

Starting Line up card...

1 Bob 4
2 Carl 3
3 David DP
4 Earl 5
5 Frank 6
6 Greg 2
7 Hank 7
8 Joe 8
9 Sam 9
10 Tim 1 Flex

At the start of the game..Tim is not the pitcher but David is. When David bats and reaches base can you use a courtesy
runner for David other than the flex?? David continues to bat and pitch until the 3rd inning then Tim enters the game
as the pitcher...but in the bottom of 4th David bats again and Tim is still pitching in the top of the 5th. In the 6th David bats again and Tim is still on the mound the 6 and 7th innings...
This can't be right when is David an illegal sub..or when is Tim and illegal pitcher???? Thanks Sue

[streamdoc]

Sue,

I didn't look at the rest of your question in too much detail, but did notice something that looks a bit strange to me. You give the starting line up card, but then say at the start of the game Dave is pitching rather than Tim. The lineup card has Dave as the DP (he only bats), and Tim listed as the Flex, playing Pitcher. Can you clarify what the real situation was? If what the coach meant to say was that s/he was staring the the game with 9 players with Dave as the Pitcher, and batting, and Tim is going to come into the game at some point as the Flex - this would not be legal as the DP/Flex designations must be correctly identified prior to the start of the game - I believe.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by slowballbaker
Need help on this one umpires.....

Starting Line up card...

1 Bob 4
2 Carl 3
3 David DP
4 Earl 5
5 Frank 6
6 Greg 2
7 Hank 7
8 Joe 8
9 Sam 9
10 Tim 1 Flex

At the start of the game..Tim is not the pitcher but David is.

All responses based on Tim not playing any other defensive position.

Tim has left the game. Lineup is now at 9.

When David bats and reaches base can you use a courtesy
runner for David other than the flex??

It MUST be someone other than the Flex and not in the game in any capacity for it to be a CR

David continues to bat and pitch until the 3rd inning then Tim enters the game
as the pitcher

Tim has re-entered the game. Line up now back to 10.

...but in the bottom of 4th David bats again

Tim has left the game and exhausted his eligibility.

and Tim is still pitching in the top of the 5th.

Illegal pitcher. Tim is DQ'd if caught. Any play which occurs during a period is governed by Rule 4. Good umpiring would prevent this from happening.

In the 6th David bats again and Tim is still on the mound the 6 and 7th innings...
This can't be right when is David an illegal sub..or when is Tim and illegal pitcher???? Thanks Sue

David never left the game, hence he cannot be an illegal player. As noted above, Tim was done long ago, but if it gets by the umpire, it's up to the opposition to bring it to the umpire's attention while Tim is in the game.

[streamdoc]

I guess I'm still confused. Is the situation here that the line-up was submitted and made official, then Tim was removed prior to ever pitching? Why on earth...???

[JEL]

Originally posted by streamdoc
I guess I'm still confused. Is the situation here that the line-up was submitted and made official, then Tim was removed prior to ever pitching? Why on earth...???

It allows the use of the DP/FLEX for the remainder of the game. Gotta start with it to use it.

[streamdoc]

AAAHHH, yes!

And I even stated that in my original reply. Thanks, JEL

[Dakota]

Originally posted by slowballbaker
When David bats and reaches base can you use a courtesy
runner for David other than the flex??

This sentence bothers me a lot, because it indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the DP/FLEX rule.

Check out the handout on this site pertaining to the DP/FLEX rule. Also, on the links page of that site is a link to Cactus Umpires, which has an excellent powerpoint presentation on line up management that deals very nicely with DP/FLEX.

The DP and the FLEX positions may not replace each other at will, yet many persist in this belief. I am mystified as to how this misunderstanding of the rule got started, since it never has been anything close to that.

[slowballbaker]

Mike Rowe,,,
Just what I was looking for..I understand it much better
now.
You are on top of your rules...Thanks

[AtlUmpSteve]

Whoa, Mike, I think they slipped this one by you.

When Tim re-entered, and lineup back to 10, Tim is again the flex, and David is the DP. It is not only legal for David to bat and Tim to continue pitching, it is necessary without reporting another change. In that scenario, Tim has not left the game when David hits, and has not re-entered more than the first time.

This is completely legal, as I read the play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

All responses based on Tim not playing any other defensive position.

Tim has left the game. Lineup is now at 9.

It MUST be someone other than the Flex and not in the game in any capacity for it to be a CR

Tim has re-entered the game. Line up now back to 10.

Tim has left the game and exhausted his eligibility.

Illegal pitcher. Tim is DQ'd if caught. Any play which occurs during a period is governed by Rule 4. Good umpiring would prevent this from happening.

David never left the game, hence he cannot be an illegal player. As noted above, Tim was done long ago, but if it gets by the umpire, it's up to the opposition to bring it to the umpire's attention while Tim is in the game.

Hang on, Steve is correct. I caught an error in the beginning before posting, but apparently I did not walk it all the way through prior to submission. I guess that's why I don't care for the personification of scenarios.

My bad, everything here seems legal as Steve noted.

Sorry, slowballbaker.

[debeau]

A runner can be brought in for David but this would be a sub and must be reported to the Ump .The sub would then be the DP.
Tim has always been in the game . The line up starts with 10 players .
Everything is legal .
The line up as quoted is the batting order so when Tim comes in it is a defensive positional change only

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I guess that's why I don't care for the personification of scenarios.

Not to hijack the thread, but what the hey ... this is an annoyance of mine, too.

The Able, Baker, Charles tradition is at least self-identifying as to who is in what order - A, B, C, for those of you in Texas -, but ...

The lineup in this scenario was going OK (shortage of "A's"?) until it skipped "I" and then things went random.

[cloverdale]

i have read and re-read this stitch...went tot alternate site and printed the keys to dp/flex and used this to compare the secenario's...read the answers and still am confused...did dave the pitcher leave the game other than for the courtesy runner...after all the discussion that has taken place please summarize.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by cloverdale
i have read and re-read this stitch...went tot alternate site and printed the keys to dp/flex and used this to compare the secenario's...read the answers and still am confused...did dave the pitcher leave the game other than for the courtesy runner...after all the discussion that has taken place please summarize.

Cloverdale, welcome to the web site. Discussions here never get official marked as completed, they just kind of quit being answered. I think this one is probably pretty much done.

In summary... I think there were some in the above that confused "DP/Flex" for courtesy runners. These are completely opposite. I'm not sure what alternate web site you visited, but I think the way for someone to best understand this rule is to check out the details in the rule book. To summaryize further might cause misleading statements.

Best of luck.

[debeau]

On advice and a rethink.
When this line up is presented to the Ump we have 10 players .
If David (DP ) pitches then Tim has left the game and we are back to 9 .
If this has not been advised to the PU we have an Illegal Player .
If appealed upon we have an illegal substitute .
When Tim comes in to the pitch he has returned to the game and assuming this was reported to the PU everything is now legal .
David still bats , Tim pitches all legal .