dropped 3rd strike

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And to know this situation the umpire(s) have to indicate what it is.

F2 knew he didn't field the pitch cleanly. Why does he need an umpire to tell him to tag the BR?


Tim.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

F2 knew he didn't field the pitch cleanly. Why does he need an umpire to tell him to tag the BR?


Tim.

The batter needs to know too. Should the catcher tell him?

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know. And maybe the umpire didn't see it the same way.

Why call balls and strikes - the catcher and batter should know.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The batter needs to know too. Should the catcher tell him?

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know. And maybe the umpire didn't see it the same way.

Why call balls and strikes - the catcher and batter should know.

Similar to the school of thought in some rule sets that says the OT and DT should "know" it is an IFF even if nobody on the crew calls it. And then there is confusion if it is a force or a tag if the runners attempt (or are forced) to advance.

Still, a catcher should assume a no catch call on anything borderline to avoid this kind of heartburn. Just as runners are cautioned to be aware that they should not immediately come off the bag if they are called out running on a 3-2 pitch that might be ruled ball four.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know.

You mean you wouldn't tell your catcher, "Hey, if the pitch had even a remote chance that it hit the dirt first, just tag the batter to be safe." ????

You would think after the Josh Paul/Doug Eddings BS that it would be an automatic reaction from every competent catcher.

[Bob James]

Well and true said, SanDiegoSteve,

I suppose if we were coaches, we could say never roll a third strike to the mound until all parties involved acknowledge the third strike.

Since I'm still learning this craft, I also suppose that as umpires, the solution is to be emphatic and clear in our signals on any such third strike situation. The batter is either out on the caught third strike or he's a runner on the third strike not caught. It also helps to have a good pre-game understanding of how to treat these with your partner. But I have to confess, even after we cover this in pre-game, I can't recall ever looking at my partner to confirm. One of many areas I need to improve.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The batter needs to know too. Should the catcher tell him?

And BTW, the catcher doesn't always know. And maybe the umpire didn't see it the same way.

Why call balls and strikes - the catcher and batter should know.

Your ridiculous comment about balls and strikes aside, Rich..............

I'm not saying that the umpires didn't screw the pooch here with their poor mechanics, but I am saying that you can't put all the blame on them. Don't give me this nonsense about the batter either. Apparently he figured it out quickly enough to be standing on first, now didn't he. I played catcher from the age of 8, and continued into my mid thirties, Rich. Your comment that the catcher doesn't always know if he's fielded the ball cleanly is complete BS. He's the only one on the field, in many cases, that is 100% sure whether he fielded it cleanly or not. Time for your daily cheese dose......

Tim.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You mean you wouldn't tell your catcher, "Hey, if the pitch had even a remote chance that it hit the dirt first, just tag the batter to be safe." ????

You would think after the Josh Paul/Doug Eddings BS that it would be an automatic reaction from every competent catcher.

You tell them that, they usually do it. That's not the issue.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Your comment that the catcher doesn't always know if he's fielded the ball cleanly is complete BS. He's the only one on the field, in many cases, that is 100% sure whether he fielded it cleanly or not.
Tim.

So you're saying sometimes he doesn't know. Thanks. That was my point.


And the real question is what is the umpires opinion. It is the only one that matters, so the umpire should be obligated to let everyone know what it is.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

So you're saying sometimes he doesn't know. Thanks. That was my point.


And the real question is what is the umpires opinion. It is the only one that matters, so the umpire should be obligated to let everyone know what it is.

I didn't want to speak in absolutes. There's always going to be a coach too dumb to teach his catchers what to do, or a catcher too dumb to know whether he's caught a ball or not.

Tim.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

So you're saying sometimes he doesn't know. Thanks. That was my point.


And the real question is what is the umpires opinion. It is the only one that matters, so the umpire should be obligated to let everyone know what it is.

Curious, but wouldn't the umpire's opinion be at least hinted at by the lack of a verbal "out" call?

[Larry1953]

If the bat had touched the ball in a potential foul tip situation, the crew would be required to make a definitive call as to whether the catcher properly caught the ball for an out. Why should it be any different if the bat does not touch the ball? Perhaps crews have come to rely on the "automatic tag" by the catcher and overlook the need for a prompt call. It would seem "Strike three, no catch" would be the fairest thing for both the catcher and the batter to hear.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Curious, but wouldn't the umpire's opinion be at least hinted at by the lack of a verbal "out" call?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't some rule sets say that the infield fly still applies even if the crew does not give the verbal call. If so, that doesn't seem proper at all - how are the teams supposed to know if the crew has judged it not to be ordinary effort or just forgot to call it. The "non-call" sounds exactly the same in both cases.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't all rule sets say that the infield fly still applies even if the crew does not give the verbal call?

Fixed your post.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Fixed your post.

Steve, I don't think all rule sets are the same for an uncalled IFF. NCAA and FED "expect" the players to recognize an IFF even if it is not called. In OBR, it is not an IFF if it is not called. According to J/R, the play stands but a DP which might result should be negated. I suppose the main difference is that im OBR the B/R would be safe at first. The problem with the other interpretation is that it is unclear if a force or tag is required if the ball drops.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Curious, but wouldn't the umpire's opinion be at least hinted at by the lack of a verbal "out" call?

You verbalize a 'yerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrout!' on a swinging strike 3?