dropped 3rd strike

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If there's any doubt at all, I either say "catch" or "no catch" (or maybe "ball's on the ground") so the batter and catcher can tell.

I don't see a need to verbalize those things. Your strike call is already verbal, followed by a safe signal to illustrate that the requirement for an out was not completed.

"Catch" and "No catch" sound similar to those wearing helmets. Telling a batter that the ball is on the ground is helping him. His team and coaches will do that.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I don't see a need to verbalize those things. Your strike call is already verbal, followed by a safe signal to illustrate that the requirement for an out was not completed.

"Catch" and "No catch" sound similar to those wearing helmets. Telling a batter that the ball is on the ground is helping him. His team and coaches will do that.

My strike call isn't verbal on a swing, but you're correct that the "not yet out" verbal is accompanied by a safe signal.

I'm telling both players, not just the batter, that the ball is (or isn't) on the ground.

We do this when there's a close catch in the outfield -- why wouldn't we do this at the plate when they can't see the signals?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

My strike call isn't verbal on a swing, but you're correct that the "not yet out" verbal is accompanied by a safe signal.

I'm telling both players, not just the batter, that the ball is (or isn't) on the ground.

We do this when there's a close catch in the outfield -- why wouldn't we do this at the plate when they can't see the signals?

Bob,
You are confusing the two mechanics. We do not tell the players that a ball is uncaught in the outfield (I prefer "Ball Down" to "No Catch" for the aformentioned reasons). I am alerting my partners to responsibilities on the play. I could care less about the players. That is why they have coaches.

I was envisioning a half swing strike, D3K rather than a full swing. You are correct about not verbalizing a standard swing and miss. However, I prefer to point and announce "Swing" to indicate the strike on a half swing miss. If the ball is uncaught, the safe signal goes out and all know, or should know, that the ball was not caught. I have never been to a game where a D3K didn't elicit "RUN!" by coaches, teammates and fans. If the batter doesn't know, too bad. The catcher knows if they caught it or not. If the catcher has any doubt, they are taught to tag the BR. I coached U11 this year and all the players we have and saw did this. I didn't see an issue with it this year at HS or college ball either.

I see a player swinging for the fences, missing and dejectedly walking away only to hear you say "Ball's on the ground." The catcher can't find it and the player now reacts to your prompting to safely reach the base. That could get ugly quick.

You know the umpire in question, so no names. In a state playoff game a decade or so ago, he was working 1B in a 3 man. The SS misplayed one deep in the hole and stupidly threw a late toss to first. The runner had just crossed the bag when the umpire said, "Ball's away, ball's away." as the throw skidded under the glove of the fielder. The kid took off for second and was gunned down a half step short. The kid's coaches went ballistic about his verbalization. He had to eat it because he knew he was wrong. No ejections, the out stood. He hasn't had a big game in a long time but still claims he was simply alerting us that the ball was uncaught.

[bob jenkins]

It's been discussed ad nauseum over the past several years. I'll stick with my (and it's not just mine) mechanic. And, the play at first (at least that specific play) is different.

[MikeStrybel]

I never said you shouldn't. I simply pointed out the folly of helping a player rather than just making the call. Stick with what serves you best.

Yes, the play at first was different. Unless we are discussing the same play, all references to similar mechanics fall into that category. It happens all of the time here.

[UmpJM]

MikeStrybel,

The problem with the visual/physical mechanic only regarding your judgement of whether or not the catcher legally caught the pitch is that the two people with the most urgent need to know, the batter (-runner) and catcher, can't see your mechanic.

I use what Bob J. and Jim Evans suggest, both a physical and verbal mechanic:

If the catcher does not legally catch the ball, the umpire should signal the strike and then indicate physically and verbally tha the ball was not legally secured. By pointing to the ground and verbally stating "Ball's on the ground!" or "No catch!", the umpire is giving the batter a fair chance to advance and, also, informing the catcher that he may have other obligations to fulfill in order to retire the batter. - Jim Evans, Maximizing the Two_Umpire System

Were a coach come out to complain about my mechanics, I'd laugh in his f... I mean, thank him for his input and send him back to the dugout.

The catcher may know whether or not he caught the pitch, but he has no idea whether you JUDGED he caught it unless you let him know.

JM

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

MikeStrybel,

The problem with the visual/physical mechanic only regarding your judgement of whether or not the catcher legally caught the pitch is that the two people with the most urgent need to know, the batter (-runner) and catcher, can't see your mechanic.

I use what Bob J. and Jim Evans suggest, both a physical and verbal mechanic:



Were a coach come out to complain about my mechanics, I'd laugh in his f... I mean, thank him for his input and send him back to the dugout.

The catcher may know whether or not he caught the pitch, but he has no idea whether you JUDGED he caught it unless you let him know.

JM

Three decades later and never had a catcher that didn't know how to turn his head if he had a doubt. I have seen a few coaches get angry at umpires who alert runners to D3K though. Dance with who brought you, J. I hope all is well.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I don't see a need to verbalize those things. Your strike call is already verbal, followed by a safe signal to illustrate that the requirement for an out was not completed.

"Catch" and "No catch" sound similar to those wearing helmets. Telling a batter that the ball is on the ground is helping him. His team and coaches will do that.

1) strike calls on swinging strikes are not "already verbal" they are arm signaled only.

2) if anything is verbalized, it would be "no catch." "Catch" would never be verbalized. No Catch only sounds like Catch if the umpire mumbles it under his breath instead of sounding off.

3) why is verbalizing "no catch" any different as far as "helping" than a safe signal? Are we only showing the eight defensive players (who can see it for themselves) that the ball wasn't caught, and the batter and catcher just stand there like idiots?

And yes, Rich, some of the onus IS on the players. After all, they are supposed to be paying attention to the game, and know that when strike 3 has a chance of being uncaught, that as a batter they run and as a catcher they apply a tag. Simple as that. This should take place at about the same time as the umpire is signaling.

The problem is that coaches would rather put the onus on the umpire exclusively, and absolve themselves of having to actually coach their players.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

1) strike calls on swinging strikes are not "already verbal" they are arm signaled only.

I explained already, I envisioned a half swing D3K.

2) if anything is verbalized, it would be "no catch." "Catch" would never be verbalized. No Catch only sounds like Catch if the umpire mumbles it under his breath instead of sounding off.

I agree. I have never stated that I would verbalize either. That is why I wrote that it sounds the same to people wearing helmets.

3) why is verbalizing "no catch" any different as far as "helping" than a safe signal? Are we only showing the eight defensive players (who can see it for themselves) that the ball wasn't caught, and the batter and catcher just stand there like idiots?

Once again, the players have coaches. The safe signal suffices. It was evident in multiple NCAA CWS games this year. Many of those umpires are JEA graduates. They did a great job this year.

Take it easy, Steve.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

That is why I wrote that it sounds the same to people wearing helmets.

No, it only sounds the same if the umpire mumbles the "No" part. Nobody has EVER mistaken my NO catch call for "catch." A lot of emphasis on the NO with an emphatic safe sign. Never had one problem. Why on earth would a player anticipate an umpire saying "catch" anyway? It has been "He's Out" or "No Catch" for years now.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Once again, the players have coaches. The safe signal suffices. It was evident in multiple NCAA CWS games this year. Many of those umpires are JEA graduates. They did a great job this year.

I fail to see what JEA graduates has to do with anything. Very irrelevant. I've worked with JEA grads that couldn't carry my jock to home plate. If you want names, I'll send them to you.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, it only sounds the same if the umpire mumbles the "No" part. Nobody has EVER mistaken my NO catch call for "catch." A lot of emphasis on the NO with an emphatic safe sign. Never had one problem. Why on earth would a player anticipate an umpire saying "catch" anyway? It has been "He's Out" or "No Catch" for years now.

SDS, you and I aren't far apart on this. I simply replied to the assertion that you can say, "Catch" or "No Catch" as done on fly balls. That will cause trouble and I provided an alternative, "Catch" and "Ball down" that was done by a colleague of mine and since adopted. There is no confusion. I also pointed out that we DO NOT DO THIS for the benefit of the players, rather it is an umpire mechanic to alert our partner(s) to play coverage.

I fail to see what JEA graduates has to do with anything. Very irrelevant. I've worked with JEA grads that couldn't carry my jock to home plate. If you want names, I'll send them to you.

I responded to the assertion that JE teaches this so it must be the only way to do it. A bit of backreading was in order. You are correct, there is disparity between JEA graduates. I don't need names, I know a few.

I wish you well. Fall ball is pretty much mush ball here. Lots of rain and wind - perfect football weather.