LLWS and replay

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by THoy

I apologize if I have offended you. However, I should be able to defend my position....should I not?

When did I say you offended me? Thin skinned today? You said,

Opinions like the one above seem to reveal a disdain for the Little Umpire for reasons that I can only speculate.

Why do you need to speculate? Those reasons have been given ad nauseum, and many times in this thread alone.

I have no problem with someone who is willing to invest their time in learning to umpire correctly choosing whatever organization they like to ply their wares. But honestly - if you're working LL for free, you should know that you're giving away services to a group who don't feel your services deserve pay. That says everything most officials need to know about LL. The umpiring is inherently and necessarily worse at LL, solely because this refusal to pay pushes a great number of umpires elsewhere. I'm not saying it's impossible to be good and work LL. Just that the overall general talent level is lower because the pool of umpires who will work for them is smaller.

I will say this. I worked LL some this summer. I worked because I was begged and even then - they paid me, whether they were supposed to or not. Working those games was miserable. One partner meant well but had ZERO training. Another partner was a truly nice guy, but had no clue and had no intention of learning either. He let a coach walk all over him the game I worked with him - and when we got together between games he INSISTED he would never eject a coach because "it's all about the kids." He didn't seem to understand or WANT to understand that allowing that kind of crap was not "for the kids" and he was doing himself AND all the umpires that followed him a huge disservice. I'm given to understand that this quality is about equal across that district.

[THoy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

When did I say you offended me? Thin skinned today? You said, Why do you need to speculate? Those reasons have been given ad nauseum, and many times in this thread alone.

I have no problem with someone who is willing to invest their time in learning to umpire correctly choosing whatever organization they like to ply their wares. But honestly - if you're working LL for free, you should know that you're giving away services to a group who don't feel your services deserve pay. That says everything most officials need to know about LL. The umpiring is inherently and necessarily worse at LL, solely because this refusal to pay pushes a great number of umpires elsewhere. I'm not saying it's impossible to be good and work LL. Just that the overall general talent level is lower because the pool of umpires who will work for them is smaller.

I will say this. I worked LL some this summer. I worked because I was begged and even then - they paid me, whether they were supposed to or not. Working those games was miserable. One partner meant well but had ZERO training. Another partner was a truly nice guy, but had no clue and had no intention of learning either. He let a coach walk all over him the game I worked with him - and when we got together between games he INSISTED he would never eject a coach because "it's all about the kids." He didn't seem to understand or WANT to understand that allowing that kind of crap was not "for the kids" and he was doing himself AND all the umpires that followed him a huge disservice. I'm given to understand that this quality is about equal across that district.

Crowder-

I can sympathize with you and understand your position regarding a select population of LL umpires. However, you cannot cast that light onto all LL umpires. I have also worked with guys like that, but I used the "major" tournaments I have worked to hopefully inspire them to seek better training. Many LL umpires have attended professional schools to help themsleves and LL. I attempt to explain to them that their job will get easier if they get more training and ask questions. Umpires are a very valuable comodity in the LL program. Just because they don't pay them monetarily doesnt make the program an exploiter. LL has been a volunteer organization since its inception and that is why the Series is reserved for volunteers.

Everybody has different philosophies regarding umpiring. When I am on the field I handle what needs to be handled. If a LL guys dont want to jack a manger, coach, or player who has crossed the line...then bet your *** I will do it...and it will get done. If questions are asked after the game, then I will answer them respectfully saying basically I cannot allow that kind of thing when I am on the field with you. A big part of the LL program is exactly the issue you raise regarding proper behavior and ettiquette. And that is exactly the reason I do what I do....its not about you or me...its about the kids and the fact that no one is teaching them about respect. I assume that role when need be. We lead by example. Just because you get paid for something does not mean you are good at it, but when you volunteer you are always doing good. Some of you may find that to be a load of BS and thats fine, but there are hundreds of thousands of true blue volunteers who will disagree.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by THoy

However, you cannot cast that light onto all LL umpires.

Never did. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not denigrating the umpires at all - I'm denigrating the organization and their methods of A) payment and B) selection (although only the former in this particular thread ... so far).

[kylejt]

Let's make this clear for everyone. Little League does not preclude local leagues from paying umpires. There are no rules against it, nor have there been. It's up to each individual league to decide how they want to cover that particular duty. Again, it's no different than scorekeeping, working the snack bar, or mowing the grass. Some leagues pay, and others don't.

Now, if you want to work post season, then you've got to jump through certain hoops. Years ago, a post season selection was like a gold watch given for years of service. A "thank you" to guys who might be working their last games. The trouble started around 10 years ago, when more games were televised, and it became apparent that some of these folks were just not up to the task any more. Things have evolved since then, and performance is more of a key ingredient.

Oh, you've still got to pay your dues, and part of it is being a volunteer. See, with so many folks vying for those spots, LL can be picky on who they select. Pure volunteers is just an easy way to filter folks out. Out West, you're going to need to be an instructor, too. Other locations aren't as picky, as they don't have the huge pool to draw from.

For those that like to smack volunteer umpires for doing a paid job, and thus diluting the job market, consider this: Would you be as critical of a guy who donates his skills as a carpenter, and helps build a clubhouse for his kid's league?

[zm1283]

I don't really have a problem with umpires themselves who want to volunteer. I wouldn't do it, but that's just me. The problem I have is with the LL organization itself. It's insistence on volunteers for postseason, the insane rules they use, the exploitation of kids on TV so they can make money, etc etc. Plus, the glorification by LL and ESPN of volunteer umpires is kind of goofy. It's like they're trying to convince viewers that the volunteers are somehow better because they don't take money and "Do it for the kids". The whole thing is just a circus.

[THoy]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Let's make this clear for everyone. Little League does not preclude local leagues from paying umpires. There are no rules against it, nor have there been. It's up to each individual league to decide how they want to cover that particular duty. Again, it's no different than scorekeeping, working the snack bar, or mowing the grass. Some leagues pay, and others don't.

Now, if you want to work post season, then you've got to jump through certain hoops. Years ago, a post season selection was like a gold watch given for years of service. A "thank you" to guys who might be working their last games. The trouble started around 10 years ago, when more games were televised, and it became apparent that some of these folks were just not up to the task any more. Things have evolved since then, and performance is more of a key ingredient.

Oh, you've still got to pay your dues, and part of it is being a volunteer. See, with so many folks vying for those spots, LL can be picky on who they select. Pure volunteers is just an easy way to filter folks out. Out West, you're going to need to be an instructor, too. Other locations aren't as picky, as they don't have the huge pool to draw from.

For those that like to smack volunteer umpires for doing a paid job, and thus diluting the job market, consider this: Would you be as critical of a guy who donates his skills as a carpenter, and helps build a clubhouse for his kid's league?

Again. Well put.

[THoy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

when did i say you offended me? Thin skinned today?

:d

[kylejt]

Everybody umpires for different reasons. Even LL umpires.

Me, I do it to teach kids how to officiate games, and that includes all the ancillary life lessons that go along with it. I couldn't care less about working post season games. I'll do it, if it's what my Juniors want to do, and I can help them out.

To me, it's just another volunteer job at the field. No different than fixing the plumbing, mowing the grass, or working the grill. All jobs you can get paid for outside the park, that need to be done in order for a local league to function.

("Oh, but we go to special schools, and have lots of equipment". So does our plumber, and that reel lawn mower costs about $7K.)

Some leagues pay plumbers, grounds keepers, cooks, etc. Others can get find volunteers to do it. Every league is different.

Some guys like to think that umpiring is a God given skill, to be envied by all. Swell. I'm sure some plumbers think the same way. Honestly, it ain't that hard, nor complicated, unlike plumbing. Or maybe it's just that my job is tad more complicated than either.

Not that I'm a zealot for volunteer umpires. Every local league can do what they wish, and so can every umpire. I don't care. I have a skill that I can help out my local league with, so I do. To me, it's just like coaching a baseball team. I've got a bunch of kids I'm in charge of for the season, and I try to pass on baseball skills, and life lessons.

But in the end, for all us umpires, it just comes down to officiating a game. Some folks try to take it as serious as heart attack, but it's really nothing more than than.

[THoy]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Everybody umpires for different reasons. Even LL umpires.

Me, I do it to teach kids how to officiate games, and that includes all the ancillary life lessons that go along with it. I couldn't care less about working post season games. I'll do it, if it's what my Juniors want to do, and I can help them out.

To me, it's just another volunteer job at the field. No different than fixing the plumbing, mowing the grass, or working the grill. All jobs you can get paid for outside the park, that need to be done in order for a local league to function.

("Oh, but we go to special schools, and have lots of equipment". So does our plumber, and that reel lawn mower costs about $7K.)

Some leagues pay plumbers, grounds keepers, cooks, etc. Others can get find volunteers to do it. Every league is different.

Some guys like to think that umpiring is God given skill, to be envied by all. Swell. I'm sure some plumbers think the same way. Honestly, it ain't that hard, nor complicated, unlike plumbing. Or maybe it's just that my job is tad more complicated than either.

Not that I'm a zealot for volunteer umpires. Every local league can do what they wish, and so can every umpire. I don't care. I have a skill that I can help out my local league with, so I do. To me, it's just like coaching a baseball ball team. I've got a bunch of kids I'm in charge of for the season, and try to pass on baseball skills, and life lessons.

But in the end, for all us umpires, it just comes down to officiating a game. Some folks try to take it as serious as heart attack, but it's really nothing more than than.

Absolutely.

[THoy]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

But honestly - if you're working LL for free, you should know that you're giving away services to a group who don't feel your services deserve pay. That says everything most officials need to know about LL. The umpiring is inherently and necessarily worse at LL, solely because this refusal to pay pushes a great number of umpires elsewhere.

My apologies I misunderstood what you meant by inherently. If you watched the Series this year the umpiring was better than average if you were objective. There were some mistakes as with ANY tournament (BTW CB Bucknor botched a trapped ball last night and called it no catch (edit)- It wasnt clearly obvious, but I noticed it right away) then the RF 'er came up throwing to the plate to cut down a runner who wasn't tagging. I know we are talking about LL umpires, but it happens at every level. Some people just are not able to objectively admit this. Does it happen more often at LL...yes, but hopefully it can be improved. However, it is farse to say that payment for services rendered will accomplish the improvement.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by THoy

My apologies I misunderstood what you meant by inherently. If you watched the Series this year the umpiring was better than average if you were objective. There were some mistakes as with ANY tournament (BTW CB Bucknor botched a trapped ball last night and called it no catch (edit)- It wasnt clearly obvious, but I noticed it right away) then the RF 'er came up throwing to the plate to cut down a runner who wasn't tagging. I know we are talking about LL umpires, but it happens at every level. Some people just are not able to objectively admit this. Does it happen more often at LL...yes, but hopefully it can be improved. However, it is farse to say that payment for services rendered will accomplish the improvement.

Apology accepted. I did not say each individual umpire was bad ... I said the overall quality of the umpiring was bad. And if you feel the umpiring was better than average, I suggest strongly that you get out more. The umpiring on TV was an embarassment to those of us who do the job, and on the whole brought the perception of umpires across the board down. Go work a district tournament in ANY other organization (not to mention a regional or state) and you'll see better umpiring than you saw on TV. Given that you work LL, you are probably completely unaware of the HUGE number of poor positioning, poor (or unnecessary) rotations, etc that we saw. I'm not talking wrong calls... I'm talking wrong calls because the umpire was not where he should have been, or was making a call that belonged to someone else better placed to make the call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Given that you work LL, you are probably completely unaware of the HUGE number of poor positioning, poor (or unnecessary) rotations, etc that we saw.

Really? I'm sure he's aware since he was a *minor league umpire*.

And I work LL, etc. and I would like to think I'm quite aware, too.

Broad brush, again.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Given that you work LL, you are probably completely unaware of the HUGE number of poor positioning, poor (or unnecessary) rotations, etc that we saw.

That's just awful.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kylejt

That's just awful.

Yup. Too bad, too. I always thought better of him.

We have 5 umpires in our district who I'd put up against any umpires. All 5 have worked college schedules and deep into the HS playoffs -- 4 of us have worked one of the LL World Series tournaments (2 at the LLWS). July and August are dedicated to LL for all of us. I guess we magically turn into crappy umpires the second they stop paying us to work games and we put on a LL patch.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Yup. Too bad, too. I always thought better of him.

We have 5 umpires in our district who I'd put up against any umpires. All 5 have worked college schedules and deep into the HS playoffs -- 4 of us have worked one of the LL World Series tournaments (2 at the LLWS). July and August are dedicated to LL for all of us. I guess we magically turn into crappy umpires the second they stop paying us to work games and we put on a LL patch.

Obviously what I said is being taken in a way I didn't intend... but after rereading I'm not seeing it. I've repeatedly said that there are good umpires and bad umpires in LL --- just that the selection pool in general is worse. What did I say to make you think poorly of me?

(Whatever it was, I apologize).

Edit to add: I've not read every post this guy has ever made, perhaps not even every single post of his in this thread... I was not aware he is (or says he is) a minor league umpire. I based my statement on his direct quote that the umpiring in this year's LLWS was not bad... I think it's clear that it was bad - very bad. Perhaps my assumption of the reason he was unaware was wrong ... but I'm honestly flabbergasted then that ANY minor league umpire could have watched this year's LLWS and called that umpiring "not bad".

In any case, I apologize for the broad brush.